tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post4209784418204201078..comments2024-03-28T17:11:52.333+00:00Comments on The Pub Curmudgeon: You lookin’ at my bird?Curmudgeonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comBlogger83125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-37141092572106847892014-04-29T07:57:35.144+01:002014-04-29T07:57:35.144+01:00Don't worry lads, I have an idea. What we need...Don't worry lads, I have an idea. What we need are rules. I propose the following. <br /><br />You are not allowed to talk to ladies ever if you fulfill any of the following criteria :<br /><br />A : You are an introvert<br />B : You are a bit of an odd ball<br />C : You're called Phil<br />D : You've written a beer book<br />E : You have been convicted of exposing yourself in public places.<br />F : You have been banned from keeping pets<br />G : You drink real ale in real ale pubs<br />H : Facial hair<br />I : Bodies under the porch<br />J : The general and usual reaction to your approaches to women is one of "Will you fuck off"<br /><br />You are allowed to talk to ladies if :-<br /><br />A : You are a normal person that drinks normal lager and is basically a normal person.<br />B : The general and usual reaction to your approaches to women is one of "My name is ...., here's my number"Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-3150731968091275942014-04-28T23:44:54.372+01:002014-04-28T23:44:54.372+01:00Cookie already explained:
"A sex pest will b...Cookie already explained:<br /><br />"A sex pest will be a sex pest and dick head whatever social rules you try and enforce. Discouraging nice blokes chatting up nice lasses in a decent none threatening manner seems to set a norm where the only social engagement a women would receive is unpleasant and unwanted."<br /><br /><br />There is a problem that a small minority of male-female interactions feature a complete knob who ignores social norms. If you make it the norm that no-one else talks to women at all, then all that will happen is those interactions will make up 100% of male-female interactions.<br /><br />pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-21190819617815572192014-04-28T23:24:17.659+01:002014-04-28T23:24:17.659+01:00"I've said multiple times, quite clearly,...<i>"I've said multiple times, quite clearly, that I think women get much more unwelcome attention in public places than men"</i><br /><br />No doubt this is true to some extent, given the social norm that I referred to earlier that, in general, men are expected to make the first move in developing relationships.<br /><br />If you want to reengineer the whole of society to stop that, fair enough, but your chances of success are pretty minimal.<br /><br />And I don't honestly believe that the experience of most women is that they are being constantly hit on by men they would prefer to have nothing to do with. If they are, maybe they're going to the wrong places. Not every pub (or other venue) is going to suit everyone.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-82455109854446129372014-04-28T23:06:35.440+01:002014-04-28T23:06:35.440+01:00There's not point say "I didn't say t...<i>There's not point say "I didn't say that"</i><br /><br />You said "Contrary to <i>your assertion</i>, a friendly, interacting society and community makes us all happier, stronger and safer."<br /><br />Which assertion is that?<br /><br /><i>you've said multiple times quite clearly that you think men should not speak to women unless they are first spoken to, which, frankly, is patently absurd</i><br /><br />I've said multiple times, quite clearly, that I think women get much more unwelcome attention in public places than men; and that I think this is a problem; and that one way to address this problem would be for a social norm to be established to the effect that for a man to strike up conversation with a woman on her own is seen as undesirable. (Obviously I also realise that this social norm is never likely to be established.)<br /><br />If you don't think women do get a lot more unwanted attention than men, or if you think they should just put up with it, then obviously you won't agree that the problem matters, so you won't be interested in ways of addressing it. Any fix is too expensive if the problem is non-existent. I don't think this is a non-existent problem, though.Philhttp://ohgoodale.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-13861710140388368232014-04-28T21:58:42.078+01:002014-04-28T21:58:42.078+01:00You realise we can all read you previous posts Phi...You realise we can all read you previous posts Phil and see exactly what ignorant nonsense you have been spouting? There's not point say "I didn't say that", because we can all see you've said multiple times quite clearly that you think men should not speak to women unless they are first spoken to, which, frankly, is patently absurd.pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-21855963546790851752014-04-28T21:49:00.255+01:002014-04-28T21:49:00.255+01:00Contrary to your assertion, a friendly, interactin...<i>Contrary to your assertion, a friendly, interacting society and community makes us all happier, stronger and safer.</i><br /><br />Blimey O'Reilly, py, could you at least <b>try</b> to reply to something I've actually said? I know it's easier to win the argument doing it your way, but surely it's less satisfying in the long run.Philhttp://ohgoodale.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-67116503276634078842014-04-28T21:46:56.733+01:002014-04-28T21:46:56.733+01:00What are you on (about), Budvar? I was the one who...What are you on (about), Budvar? I was the one who referred to somebody getting approached by five different strangers in one afternoon, not Bailey. I was writing about a completely hypothetical scenario, not about anything I know has happened to anyone. The point of my comment was to challenge the idea that friendly and polite interaction is always OK; if someone is regularly the object of friendly and polite interaction from multiple people of the opposite sex when they would rather be left alone, they may well decide to stay at home. And this is a bad thing.<br /><br />Now, could you stay out of this thread until you've worked out what we're talking about?Philhttp://ohgoodale.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-33364549682987019372014-04-28T20:11:23.265+01:002014-04-28T20:11:23.265+01:00A magnet for drunken dickheads Mudgie?
What mid af...A magnet for drunken dickheads Mudgie?<br />What mid afternoon?<br />If this sorry tale were to be believed, the pub would appear to be a venue for the local misogyny appreciation society, who hold meetings on a daily basis. <br /><br />Is this "Boak" a dead ringer for Penelope Cruz or someone who just oozes "Bang me big style" from every pore? I suspect not.<br /><br />This just does not add up. Budvarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01411709142357622721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-15960529548520323172014-04-28T19:37:52.011+01:002014-04-28T19:37:52.011+01:00As someone said on Twitter,
The Memsahib, when y...As someone said on Twitter, <br /><br /><i>The Memsahib, when younger, used to respond to "Want some company love?" approaches with "I don't know. What's your sister like?"</i>Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-84027781812142847122014-04-28T19:36:55.740+01:002014-04-28T19:36:55.740+01:00It has to be said that pubs tend to be something o...It has to be said that pubs tend to be something of a magnet for dickheads, and they're worse when they have a few drinks inside them. But society is full of dickheads, and pubs can't be held uniquely responsible for them.<br /><br />And all the complaints levelled at pubs apply magnified at least two or three times over to nightclubs.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-19193352738668982282014-04-28T19:27:38.035+01:002014-04-28T19:27:38.035+01:00But Cookie, 5 sex pests in one afternoon in same p...But Cookie, 5 sex pests in one afternoon in same pub and happening on a regular basis ie everytime she sets foot in the place? I don't know about you, but something doesn't square with this.<br /><br />I know that if every time I walked in a certain boozer I was getting grief, I'd stay away from the place, not sit there whining "Oh woe is me" and lecture folk on "How I have the right...".<br /><br />If it happens in every pub, then the problem isn't the pub, but else where.Budvarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01411709142357622721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-35690954621556869742014-04-28T19:14:50.990+01:002014-04-28T19:14:50.990+01:00py hits a nail on the head there.
A sex pest will...py hits a nail on the head there.<br /><br />A sex pest will be a sex pest and dick head whatever social rules you try and enforce. Discouraging nice blokes chatting up nice lasses in a decent none threatening manner seems to set a norm where the only social engagement a women would receive is unpleasant and unwanted.<br /><br />What a pity if the girl sat in the coffee shop hoping the guy on his iPad says hello never does because he is afraid of misunderstanding.<br /><br />Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-35683826038929195702014-04-28T18:28:45.162+01:002014-04-28T18:28:45.162+01:00I've sat in the corner of the pub reading a bo...I've sat in the corner of the pub reading a book and been abused by the landlord and locals, all for wanting to get out of the house. I was being quiet, minding my own business while supping a pint. Some pubs just want to fail.<br /><br />I find that I'm as often invited to join other people as I am made to feel unwelcome, but most people are happy just ignoring me.<br /><br />I probably don't view things the same way as your average single woman/man, but whatever happened to just engaging people around you in conversation. Chances are it's just someone that's bored and wants a bit of company. Anyone can say no, but surely harassment only happens when persistent or overly aggressive in nature.RobsBeerOdysseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16384700060797831693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-61714722726149376392014-04-28T17:39:25.592+01:002014-04-28T17:39:25.592+01:00You're still erroneously conflating an obvious...You're still erroneously conflating an obviously sexually motivated approach with normal everyday civility and friendliness. The two things are completely different. <br /><br />Most women are quite happy to have people say "hello" or "'evening" to them. For one thing, having normal, friendly people around makes them feel less vulnerable should a dickhead emerge and try it on.<br /><br />Contrary to your assertion, a friendly, interacting society and community makes us all happier, stronger and safer. It is isolation and anonymity that leave us vulnerable.<br /><br />Your proposal is not just completely wrong and entirely misinformed, its actively counterproductive to achieving the ends you claim to wish to achieve.<br />pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-91691235363171788202014-04-28T17:35:41.040+01:002014-04-28T17:35:41.040+01:00I don't think so, and time will tell wont it?I don't think so, and time will tell wont it?Budvarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01411709142357622721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-83187268601762698502014-04-28T17:32:25.982+01:002014-04-28T17:32:25.982+01:00Budvar, you've completely misunderstood Bailey...Budvar, you've completely misunderstood Bailey's comments (and possibly this entire thread). Nobody here is talking about jealousy or possessiveness.Philhttp://ohgoodale.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-78065544605304055112014-04-28T17:30:18.074+01:002014-04-28T17:30:18.074+01:00What we're debating with Phil is whether a man...<i>What we're debating with Phil is whether a man saying anything at all to a woman - even just "good evening" - is socially acceptable.</i><br /><br />Still not right, but it's closer.<br /><br />What I'm saying is that, if I want, I can sit alone in a pub with my paper for as long as I like, with a pretty fair degree of confidence that nobody's going to approach me with a possible sexual relationship even as the faintest glimmer in the corner of their mind. (This was also the case when I was young and reasonably good-looking.) If I wanted to look available, I'd park myself at the bar and clock the punters around me and maybe venture the odd word. I don't, so I sit on my own, and nobody bothers me*. I don't think I could have anything like this confidence if I were a woman; if I were a woman, I think I would get more unwelcome attention than I do now, and I don't think I'd like this - not least because I know that many women <b>don't</b> like it, and/or avoid going to pubs on their own so as to avoid it. <br /><br />That's it, really. The "don't speak until you're spoken to" thing was a thought on how to fix the problem - a social norm that said that, in general, women don't want to be spoken to first would be quite useful in this situation.<br /><br />*Although somebody did once try to pick me up in a gay bar - which isn't really an exception, when you think about it.) Philhttp://ohgoodale.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-82102222717639071472014-04-28T17:27:54.398+01:002014-04-28T17:27:54.398+01:00Bailey, I take it back, It isn't her that need...Bailey, I take it back, It isn't her that needs a dose of harden the fuck up, it's you, as the problem is patently you.<br /><br />Having been out with one or 2 women with the insanely jealous affliction, the signs are *LOUD* and *CLEAR*. <br /><br />Like her, I daren't speak to, or make eye contact with another woman, even the barmaid or the old woman who lives down the road for fear of starting an argument or worse still the other woman getting a twatting in the toilets.<br /><br />You can't live like that, and you'll lose her eventually. I'm not being aggressive or argumentative, just giving you the benefit of my experience.Budvarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01411709142357622721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-67490314932742615722014-04-28T17:18:44.897+01:002014-04-28T17:18:44.897+01:00because the only alternative is that no-one ever t...because the only alternative is that no-one ever talks to anyone for fear that their attention may be unwanted and that would be worse for everyone.<br /><br />I can't believe someone is seriously advocating such a bonkers idea.pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-55651362416434496342014-04-28T17:13:35.015+01:002014-04-28T17:13:35.015+01:00"Precious needs a dose of harden the fuck up&...<i>"Precious needs a dose of harden the fuck up"</i><br /><br />Go back to sleep, Budvar. We'll wake you in time for the WWE/Monster Trucks double bill.<br /><br />This really isn't complicated. Unwelcome attention is attention you find unwelcome. If you're trying to have a quiet drink on your own, being approached by strangers intent on "getting to know" you may well be unwelcome, particularly if it happens over and over again. This is something that happens, and it happens to lots more women than men.<br /><br />Sure, a woman who goes out on her own will develop ways of dealing with men hitting on her, but why should she have to? She may end up deciding the game isn't worth the candle & only drink at home or in company - but why should she have to? Because that's how things are? What a great argument <b>that</b> is.Philhttp://ohgoodale.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-36019270260725259282014-04-28T17:09:15.673+01:002014-04-28T17:09:15.673+01:00Bailey, Your lady encountered a dick. A tosspot. S...Bailey, Your lady encountered a dick. A tosspot. Such people exist. I'm sure she is an intelligent lass and more than able to look after herself. I hope she told him to piss off and enjoyed her book in peace.<br /><br />Be grateful she did not enter a pub with Mudge drinking in it. You'd have likely lost her. The Clooney esq silver fox that is Mudge has been known to bedevil many a lady of the greater manchester area. He is a well renowned birder and fanny magnet of the area. They quite literally throw themselves at him. Do not be fooled by protestations he may make on this blog. I would never introduce any lady of my own aquaintence to him.<br /><br />It could be worse, She encountered a dick head and went home to you. Had she encountered the Mudge she would no longer be yours.<br />Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-48294143334956271272014-04-28T17:02:54.461+01:002014-04-28T17:02:54.461+01:00Ignore that bit Bailey. Anyone who says "wher...Ignore that bit Bailey. Anyone who says "where's your boyfriend" is clearly a prick, and no, that's obviously not acceptable. If I was in the pub at time I might even tell the bloke so (as long as he didn't look like a psycho).<br /><br />What we're debating with Phil is whether a man saying anything at all to a woman - even just "good evening" - is socially acceptable.pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-31677069246326444012014-04-28T16:54:07.291+01:002014-04-28T16:54:07.291+01:001. Boak's not an introvert.
2. I am, and I fi...1. Boak's not an introvert.<br /><br />2. I am, and I find that pubs work perfectly well for me as they are: I hardly ever get bothered if I don't want to be. Because I'm a bloke, probably, and no-one is trying to pull me.<br /><br />3. Just to be clear, I don't think anyone's objecting to hello or good evening: "Where's your boyfriend?" is a pretty clearly sexually aggressive thing to ask.<br /><br />(This is an interesting conversation but now we've reached "Precious needs a dose of harden the fuck up", I'm bailing.)Baileyhttp://boakandbailey.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-24761741192798264482014-04-28T16:44:48.246+01:002014-04-28T16:44:48.246+01:00Phil, what I guess I am saying is that the educate...Phil, what I guess I am saying is that the educated and erudite lady knows how to deal with unwanted attention.Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-67847911071781533982014-04-28T16:43:05.467+01:002014-04-28T16:43:05.467+01:00I think both that
a) men are far more likely to ...I think both that <br /><br />a) men are far more likely to strike up conversation with other men than with a woman (ironically probably for fear of being branded a sex pest), and<br /><br />b) having someone say "good evening" to you is hardly sexual harrassment. If you think basic civility such as this is "unwelcome attention", then you're probably the one with the social issues.<br /><br />I honestly can't think of the last time I went into a pub and no-one said a word to me. It must be horrible being a woman, you go to the pub and everyone falls silent and stares at the floor, in case a small noise or glance in the wrong direction is interpreted as a "unwanted attention".pynoreply@blogger.com