tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post5329485149244796299..comments2024-03-28T17:11:52.333+00:00Comments on The Pub Curmudgeon: Don’t let the facts get in the wayCurmudgeonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-37209447801396773032019-01-14T08:41:59.777+00:002019-01-14T08:41:59.777+00:00"The increase in independent operators has be..."The increase in independent operators has been largely a result of the 2003 Licensing Act [and] is nothing to do with the Beer Orders" is a very valid point.<br />With the Beer Orders "it wasn't properly considered what the expected outcome actually was" but I doubt if anyone outside CAMRA expected the never-seen-before and never-seen-again guest beers in the "beer range varies" GBG listed free house in town to extend to most pubs.<br />Ordinary drinkers in ordinary pubs, then as now, wanted known and trusted beers rather than a random selection from hundreds of micros and it's the medium sized brewers that would have benefitted most. <br />I remember thirty years ago managers at Bass Worthington, just before their Bass Charrington chiefs decided to sell all the pubs, deciding which attractive cask beer(s)they themselves could offer at an attractive price to deter their tenants from taking Banks's Mild or Banks's Bitter as soon as they got their guest beer right.<br /> The Stafford Mudgienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-32275157044826762802019-01-11T20:53:56.135+00:002019-01-11T20:53:56.135+00:00Yes, I stand corrected.
Nearly thirty years on I h...Yes, I stand corrected.<br />Nearly thirty years on I had forgotten that they had to reduce their tied estates to the permitted maximum of 2000 plus half of those above 2000.<br />We all remember tenants being permitted "one brand of cask conditioned beer" but it was also "one bottle-conditioned beer of their choice" not that any might have taken such a BCA. The Stafford Mudgienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-24192554312933347192019-01-11T09:26:58.592+00:002019-01-11T09:26:58.592+00:00No, they were required to make half of any pubs th...No, they were required to make half of any pubs they owned in excess of 2,000 entirely free of tie, which understandably they didn't want to do, as it removed the whole raison d'etre of owning the pubs in the first place.<br /><br />They could probably have coped with just having a single guest cask beer in every pub, especially since by that time the majority of beer sales in pubs were lager anyway.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-3259424638851766172019-01-11T00:46:28.204+00:002019-01-11T00:46:28.204+00:00But wasn't it "to divest a substantial pr...But wasn't it "to divest a substantial proportion of their estates" IF they didn't offer that guest beer right ?<br />They wouldn't offer a guest beer right and then divested all of their estates rather than reducing them to the limit of 2000 fully tied pubs. The Stafford Mudgienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-41006646360798560732019-01-11T00:39:45.943+00:002019-01-11T00:39:45.943+00:00It was inherent in the Beer Orders that some kind ...It was inherent in the Beer Orders that some kind of industry restructuring would happen, as they required the Big Six (or at least those excluding Scottish & Newcaslte) to divest a substantial proportion of their estates. I have no idea what the authors of the legislation actually expected to occur, but it's certainly true that many in CAMRA naively imagined they would involve hiving off some regional breweries together with their associated tied estates, which was just never going to happen. <br /><br />The increase in independent operators has been largely a result of the 2003 Licensing Act, which made it much easier to open new licensed premises. It is nothing to do with the Beer Orders, which in any case had been rescinded by then. Undoubtedly this has introduced more competition and diversity into the industry, but it has to be viewed in the context of a virtual halving of beer sales in pubs since it was brought in, which can hardly be regarded as representing an industry in a healthy state.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-54842773903314908032019-01-11T00:14:50.919+00:002019-01-11T00:14:50.919+00:00John,
No, I don't think "The increase in ...John,<br />No, I don't think "The increase in independent operators" was "one of the aims of the Beer Orders" which I remember as only being about a guest beer right not changing ownership of the pubs. <br />The Stafford Mudgienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-37559181962346273362019-01-10T20:10:42.114+00:002019-01-10T20:10:42.114+00:00Cat we please get back on to Pub Cats ?Cat we please get back on to Pub Cats ?retiredmartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15429804437739227082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-84420425582846971042019-01-10T18:44:26.606+00:002019-01-10T18:44:26.606+00:00The beer orders seemed like a good idea at the tim...The beer orders seemed like a good idea at the time because they were, on balance, a good idea.<br /><br />Pretty much everything bad that has happened subsequently has been an unintended and almost entirely unforeseen consequence. I have seen virtually nothing written at the time warning that the breweries would divest portfolios and monster PubCos exempt from the rules and carrying restricted ranges would emerge. Nobody saw it coming. It probably wasn't even really on the radar of those who would go on to form the evil PubCos.<br /><br />PubCos are now the villains largely for the same reasons that the 'Big 5/6/7/x' were the villains back in the day. I generally avoid most of them much as I avoided Bass-Charrington and Carlsberg-Tetley and Courage-S&N pubs etc. 25 years ago. <br /><br />Plus ca change.<br />Ben Viveurhttp://www.benviveur.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-11867426880607836042019-01-10T18:02:28.589+00:002019-01-10T18:02:28.589+00:00This story explains why:
https://www.crowdjustice...This story explains why:<br /><br />https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/fight-pub-companies/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-32985006185871039652019-01-10T17:16:36.597+00:002019-01-10T17:16:36.597+00:00The increase in independent operators,which was I ...The increase in independent operators,which was I understand one of the aims of the Beer Orders and later licensing reforms seems to have finally come about,see my earlier comment. The Beer Orders are perhaps finally working long after their revocation. I had dealings with some of the former Whitbread estate in South Wales shortly after the Beer Orders came into effect in 1992,the standards of maintenance were not high. I believe that the pub industry is in a healthier state with the ease that new entrants have to the market and that customers benefit from this. John Lambnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-32142297166285882042019-01-10T12:54:49.580+00:002019-01-10T12:54:49.580+00:00Quite a high proportion, from what I can see :-(Quite a high proportion, from what I can see :-(Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-49521921325630478332019-01-10T12:49:33.781+00:002019-01-10T12:49:33.781+00:00Unfortunately, the relentless torrent of negative ...Unfortunately, the relentless torrent of negative publicity has created a feeling of self-loathing amongst many smokers, a form of "Stockholm syndrome". And they are one of the few remaining minorities who it's acceptable to mock and jeer at.<br /><br />Of course, the way trends are heading, it won't be too long before drinkers of alcohol are a minority in society, at which point the argument that severe anti-drink measures carry a political price will evaporate.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-8006412385579094412019-01-10T12:47:24.129+00:002019-01-10T12:47:24.129+00:00And your fears about unisex toilets are coming tru...And your fears about unisex toilets are coming true, albeit not in proper pubs :-) :-) :-)dcbwhaleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02585310584555592882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-31248330417761536562019-01-10T10:35:52.009+00:002019-01-10T10:35:52.009+00:00I wasn't blogging or writing a magazine column...I wasn't blogging or writing a magazine column at the time of the Beer Orders, but if I had been I'm sure I would have expressed a certain note of scepticism about the Beer Orders. As with many other pieces of legislation, it wasn't properly considered what the expected outcome actually was.<br /><br />The first explicitly anti-pubco comment I can find in my column is <a href="http://www.pubcurmudgeon.org.uk/beer00/curm0007.html" rel="nofollow">this one from July 2000</a>.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-91240722747882225772019-01-09T21:41:42.653+00:002019-01-09T21:41:42.653+00:00Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but at the time CA...Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but at the time CAMRA, plus many of its members (including me), embraced the Beer Orders.<br /><br />It wasn’t appreciated at the time, just how well the vertical integration between pub and owning brewery worked. Breweries, both large and small had a vested interest in maintaining their tied estates in good working order, and many of the larger companies had their own direct works departments, specifically to look after their pubs.<br /><br />The same applied to cellar services, as it was obviously in the best interests of the likes of Bass and Whitbread etc, to ensure their beers were being looked after properly, and served in tip-top condition.<br /><br />We have seen many examples locally of pubs requiring major renovation and remedial work, following years of neglect at the hands of Enterprise and Punch. Their previous owners (primarily Courage and Whitbread), would not have allowed such deterioration to have taken place. <br />Paul Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09678639237696546268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-45346818844703707562019-01-09T18:24:04.883+00:002019-01-09T18:24:04.883+00:00So what proportion of your fellow countrymen and w...So what proportion of your fellow countrymen and women would you say were "prissy and health-obsessed" then?Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-17141334588943145262019-01-09T16:19:12.819+00:002019-01-09T16:19:12.819+00:00@paul "The smoking ban may have had some eff...@paul "The smoking ban may have had some effect in speeding up these reversal of roles, but there is no going back" <br />All it would take is the stroke of a ministerial pen, unfortunate the pen of the health secretary and the DoH is institutionally smokerphobic. And I certainly hope this blatantly smokerphobic piece of legislation is consigned to the dustbin of history along with racism and homophobia. Not least of which because I don't want to spend the rest of my life being denied the human dignity of shelter. My value as a human being is just as valuable as anyone elses and I have just as much right to smoke in comfort as anyone who wants to drink in comfort has. Denying millions of people the human dignity of shelter is just down right nasty and completely unjustifiable when it comes to smoking, IMO. Part of the problem, as I see it, is that smokers have suffered decades of systematic identity spoiling for so long now that they can't even see that they are being discriminated against , even the the smoking ban makes it clear as day, and I fear that if it were not for that fact that we drinkers are in the majority then the same would happen to drinkers too. The sooner the public health industry get the kicking that is coming to it the better, IMO, and repealing the smoking ban would deal a massive blow to them.Fredrik Eichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08442979299648454852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-58815880787777812052019-01-09T14:26:06.303+00:002019-01-09T14:26:06.303+00:00The Weatherspoons ban. https://www.theguardian.com...The Weatherspoons ban. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2005/jan/24/society.smokingJonathan Bagleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17331501151709216753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-31596958544184373452019-01-09T14:23:24.933+00:002019-01-09T14:23:24.933+00:00The Laurel pub company had non-smoking pubs. Here&...The Laurel pub company had non-smoking pubs. Here's some interesting history<br /><br /> https://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/Article/2004/042/06/Laurel-hits-back-at-Tim-Martin-over-smoking<br /><br />Tim Martin wanted a ban because he knew his non-smoking pubs could not compete.Jonathan Bagleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17331501151709216753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-30590108425846261652019-01-09T13:56:57.655+00:002019-01-09T13:56:57.655+00:00@Christopher, I take your points but I would add t...@Christopher, I take your points but I would add that you have been robbed of the chance to compare and contrast! And it was not just working class boozers that had intimacy,soul,diversity and craic before the smoking ban! The range of pubs before the smoking ban was far greater IMO and included non-smoking and smoking areas in about 60% of them!Fredrik Eichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08442979299648454852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-25749195052638697622019-01-09T12:21:11.476+00:002019-01-09T12:21:11.476+00:00The "plenty of things wrong" with the bi...The "plenty of things wrong" with the big pubcos, and especially the way they have treated their tenants, resulted mainly from both of them having massive debts, I think from how or when they extended their estates.<br />I agree that we would now have a somewhat stronger pub trade if the Beer Orders had never happened. Brewers tied estates always worked well with, I would suggest, two exceptions - that they didn't realise how many of their customers would detest keg beer, but within a few years all were brewing cask again, and that there were monopolies in some areas, which they were starting to sort out such as the Allied - Bass - Courage pub swap. <br />The Stafford Mudgienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-88324199466737501192019-01-09T12:10:03.022+00:002019-01-09T12:10:03.022+00:00Oh, it's not my purpose to defend the pubcos -...Oh, it's not my purpose to defend the pubcos - there have been plenty of things wrong with both their business model and the way they have treated their tenants. But I don't think the argument really washes that some other form of ownership would have delivered vastly better results for the trade overall. I do believe, though, that we would now have a somewhat stronger pub trade if the Beer Orders had never happened.<br /><br />In any case, the market position of the big non-brewing leased pubcos is now much diminished, and they do appear to take a more pro-active role in seeking to develop the business of the pubs they have left.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-89652333905649208362019-01-09T11:46:13.493+00:002019-01-09T11:46:13.493+00:00Paul,
I agree with you except your "some peop...Paul,<br />I agree with you except your "some people are still trying to look back to what they see as a golden age, which never actually existed". I think that the 1970s was something of a golden age for those of us drinking in the Midlands and North where the great majority of pubs stocked one or two real ales that were kept well and cheaper than any other alcoholic drinks. The Stafford Mudgienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-77036229098798477482019-01-09T11:10:14.994+00:002019-01-09T11:10:14.994+00:00I think a lot of people have a strong dislike of p...I think a lot of people have a strong dislike of pubcos simply for their history of buying great pubs and making them worse. That literally seemed to be the business model for the smarter publican in the 80's and 90's, build volume and sell for a fortune.<br /><br />That seems to be a thing of the past and we now have a situation where food offering and getting the price right is much more important. That's not something a chain is always better at, but it must be easier for them to get it right. Ianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09380346096519389990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-28669815021704430962019-01-09T11:00:57.061+00:002019-01-09T11:00:57.061+00:00My local village pub is struggling. I floated a ra...My local village pub is struggling. I floated a range of business suggestions to the landlord. Every one of them would be great, he said. It was just that they would all be a breach of his contract with Punch as it was then. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com