tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post8567138652536910718..comments2024-03-28T17:11:52.333+00:00Comments on The Pub Curmudgeon: It’s real ale, Jim, but not as we know itCurmudgeonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-84211147155432093652016-02-16T13:49:14.137+00:002016-02-16T13:49:14.137+00:00Bit late picking this up.
It's all very well...Bit late picking this up. <br /><br />It's all very well quoting Magic Rock as being specifically against keg-conditioning, but you could equally quote Weird Beard and Moor who are just as well regarded and specifically in favour of it. Magic Rock have their opinions on maintaining brewery defined carbonation levels, whereas Moor are happy for their kegs to be vented & served on handpump. http://moorbeer.co.uk/beer-care/<br /><br />It is no more difficult to control the secondary fermentation in a key-keg than it is in a traditional cask - it's down to the brewers art to get the yeast and fermentables levels right - plenty of cask brewers still get this wrong. If a key-keg has too much condition then, as highlighted, it can be vented using a spare connector just as an over conditioned cask is vented by leaving it on soft spile before serving. The difference compared to a cask is that the key-keg will then retain that carbonation level where a cask will get flatter and flatter the longer it is on.<br /><br />Yes, their is a point that people who predominately drink keg probably do so because they like it colder and more carbonated. Of they may just find it more reliable after too much dodgy over-vented or oxidised cask. Or some people may drink either cask or keg depending on the brewery / beer they find on the bar.<br /><br />Where the debate gets messy is the "extraneous CO2" part of the "official" real ale definition. This causes key-kegs (and Eco-fass etc) to be split off as a separate subset from top-pressure kegs. <br />The real discussion (if it's worth having) should be over keg-conditioning vs brewery conditioning (and carbonation), filtering and pasteurisation which is much more important than what keg form it's sold in. <br />The only aspect where key-keg comes in over top pressure keg is that it (largely) avoids poor cellar set up changing the characteristics of a beer.<br /><br />Is the latter debate worth having? Well some keg brewers believe in keg conditioning as giving a better flavour. Some argue and promote brewery conditioning for consistency. And some argue that for even better consistency, you should pasteurise as well. So here we are again - back in 1965....GeordieManchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03926305998637585626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-34868371484820818362016-02-08T18:35:45.790+00:002016-02-08T18:35:45.790+00:00Ha Ha, I love the conceit that it matters to anyon...Ha Ha, I love the conceit that it matters to anyone beyond the type of person who only necks CAMRA approved grog and wants CAMRA to approve of all the grog they want to neck.<br /><br />It's them stick in the muds that what to stop you necking it by, erm, not approving of it.Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-39893678577415795702016-02-08T14:50:49.162+00:002016-02-08T14:50:49.162+00:00Mudgie, not sure what your point is. Is it a slipp...Mudgie, not sure what your point is. Is it a slippery slope concern of CAMRA being linked to any sort of keg product thereby potentially undermining cask? If so then I don't see that as a problem. The market is educated enough. <br /><br />Or is it that people will order punk thinking it is 'real keg'? To which I would say 'so what'.<br /><br />The problem CAMRA have is to be seen as being left behind. The beard and sandals brigade who can't keep up with awesomeness of the craft beer revolution etc etc. So they give a little bit of leeway to show they're still with it and still relevant in this brave new world. Robnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-80191222023477488932016-02-08T11:42:28.069+00:002016-02-08T11:42:28.069+00:00"@py - so what was wrong with Red Barrel, apa..."@py - so what was wrong with Red Barrel, apart from the fact that some people didn't like it? "<br /><br />Well, nothing, ultimately. If people had liked it, then there would have been no need for CAMRA.<br /><br />But the fact of the matter was that a significant proportion of people didn't like it, and preferred the way the old cask ales tasted. <br /><br />They mistakenly thought that the reason these beers tasted good was because of the specific way they were dispensed, but we now know that that was an illusion - blind taste tests reveal that brewery conditioned and cask conditioned ales are indistinguishable, as are beers dispensed with and without a cask breather.<br /><br /><br />PYnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-11071953486764170932016-02-08T11:32:27.523+00:002016-02-08T11:32:27.523+00:00@Rob N - yes, that very much sums up my position o...@Rob N - yes, that very much sums up my position on the subject. Is it good? Yes. Is it worth recommending? Yes. Is it real ale? No, not as usually understood.<br /><br />@Rob - the issue is more one of blurring the distinction with "conventional" filtered are carbonated keg. Like Punk IPA. And for how many punters will it really make a difference if they see a "CAMRA says this is real keg" sticker?Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-56860890853720990342016-02-08T09:13:53.238+00:002016-02-08T09:13:53.238+00:00I sort of get the point. Yes keykeg is a different...I sort of get the point. Yes keykeg is a different product to cask and should still be regarded as such.<br /><br />But I think the general consumer is actually smart enough to understand that. I really can't see there being any danger of keykeg being passed off as cask. Quite the opposite really - the places that stock it want to make a big deal out of it being different, especially when they are expecting people to pay a premium.Robnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-11395788602368204882016-02-08T00:46:26.777+00:002016-02-08T00:46:26.777+00:00Ohh and the pub of course...Ohh and the pub of course...Rob Nicholsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14871887147718814739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-52164934427118227062016-02-08T00:45:29.227+00:002016-02-08T00:45:29.227+00:00I always thought that this issue wouldn't go a...I always thought that this issue wouldn't go away and as I said on my recent FB post about the same letter in What's Brewing, I believe it's wrong to try and shoehorn this under the existing real ale definition. Aside from all the technical issues, it's simply not helpful for the consumer to try and say it's such-an-such a style of drink. Real ale is (mainly) flat and warm (relatively) whereas key keg beers are carbonated and colder.<br /><br />So let's forgot about arguing over semantics and simply decide whether there are now some good beers that are worth supporting for the benefits of the brewing industry and the consumer.Rob Nicholsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14871887147718814739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-35855232925474959112016-02-07T23:06:50.696+00:002016-02-07T23:06:50.696+00:00That's an excellent post, agree particularly w...That's an excellent post, agree particularly with the line<br /><br />"I get the impression that the reason most people go for craft keg is that they prefer its essential characteristics – that it is served cooler, and has more carbonation, than real ale"<br /><br />I have no interest at all in the debate. On occasion, e.g. in the Taps or Smithfield, I'll go for a stronger beer (say 7%) and forego temperature and a few pence, as most stronger beers don't come in cask.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-20684433370339264152016-02-07T16:42:30.766+00:002016-02-07T16:42:30.766+00:00@ChrisM - the problem is that secondary fermentati...@ChrisM - the problem is that secondary fermentation within the bag of a keykeg is hard to control, and could result in extremely fizzy beer and churning up the sediment. Hence why Magic Rock - one of the most highly-regarded new-wave brewers - say they do their best to avoid it.<br /><br />Vigorous secondary fermentation in a cask just vents to the atmosphere, whereas in a keykeg it leads to a build-up of CO2.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-1715367594609661672016-02-07T16:16:24.450+00:002016-02-07T16:16:24.450+00:00@py - so what was wrong with Red Barrel, apart fro...@py - so what was wrong with Red Barrel, apart from the fact that some people didn't like it? Likewise keg GK IPA?Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-30434697134517251032016-02-07T14:12:06.587+00:002016-02-07T14:12:06.587+00:00This is one of those debates, like sparklers which...This is one of those debates, like sparklers which are entertaining for people like me to watch for all the wrong reasons. It is CAMRA talking to itself about something only a few odd ball people care about.<br /><br />It happens. Meanwhile the rest of us just go on drinking whatever we liked to begin with.<br /><br />Maybe it's because CAMRA has nothing to say to a wider public anymore.<br /><br />CAMRA was always at its most relevant when it was talking to drinkers about the merits of the pong. Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-66955359097853483932016-02-07T13:01:11.710+00:002016-02-07T13:01:11.710+00:00What seems to have been missed is that they also p...What seems to have been missed is that they also produce another product called KeyCask that can be dispensed with a pump and which would seem to deal with the dispense objections. If it allows a club or restaurant to stock a real ale or a pub to put on a beer with limited demand, maybe a mild, then that is surely a good thing.KJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07339137349962768014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-34628843502371820092016-02-07T12:41:18.044+00:002016-02-07T12:41:18.044+00:00@Colin - I tend to regard bottle-conditioned beer ...@Colin - I tend to regard bottle-conditioned beer as a category in its own right rather than simply a bottled equivalent of cask-conditioned beer. It's a distinctly different product.<br /><br />However, if you don't get it right, the lack of venting can be a problem and result in "gushers".Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-21268951239649548322016-02-07T12:22:11.093+00:002016-02-07T12:22:11.093+00:00The secondary fermentation is surely the important...The secondary fermentation is surely the important thing - which a lot of keykeg beers undergo - plus it is possible to vent a keykeg with a spare coupler. What's more concerning for me is the number of breweries churning out essentially bright beer, with no sediment in the cask at all, and calling it 'real ale'. This beer stands no chance whatsoever of conditioning properly and is going to get beer a far worse name IMO.ChrisMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09088526990457894540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-69568398065987971672016-02-07T10:32:50.260+00:002016-02-07T10:32:50.260+00:00If venting is important then how is bottle conditi...If venting is important then how is bottle conditioned beer real ale?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01745676077091610386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-42662191525135569582016-02-07T08:02:23.389+00:002016-02-07T08:02:23.389+00:00The answer is neither relevant nor interesting. As...The answer is neither relevant nor interesting. As long as CAMRA obsess about pointless questions like this they will never be relevent, and their pointless, fractious, real ale twattery will continue to give beer a bad image.PYnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-74101202710481714092016-02-06T19:51:56.110+00:002016-02-06T19:51:56.110+00:00The misunderstanding CAMRA have about keykegs cont...The misunderstanding CAMRA have about keykegs continues to baffle me. In at least nine out of ten cases, brewers who use them are not motivated at all by any concern about artificial carbonation, CAMRA etc. It's simply that these one way kegs are convenient and avoid the need to invest in expensive metal kegs.<br /><br />As a publican I have regularly heard brewery owners and sales reps trumpet the fact they are now using traditional metal kegs as a great step forward from the necessary evil that is the key keg.<br /><br />Nobody in the trade likes them. They're a stupidly expensive, inefficient way to deliver draught beer. Ideally they should only be used in export.Stonchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07001578598975666535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-47000655065859543952016-02-06T16:32:52.691+00:002016-02-06T16:32:52.691+00:00Interesting to quote this from the Magic Rock webs...Interesting to quote this from the Magic Rock website linked above:<br /><br /><i>"Please note that we do all we can to fully ferment our beers and package them without yeast and with specific C02 levels to suit the style and they should never need de-gassing."</i><br /><br />If there is a secondary fermentation without venting it may well make the beer excessively gassy.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-57146274994495336252016-02-06T16:25:54.350+00:002016-02-06T16:25:54.350+00:00I've already seen a 'CAMRA says' label...I've already seen a 'CAMRA says' label on a keg tap, at that well-known hipster hangout the Harewood Arms, Broadbottom. (Siren Soundwave, and very nice it was too.)<br /><br />I don't think venting is fundamental to the definition of RA - what makes it 'real' is the presence of the yeast, which will carry on working to some extent even when the beer's in a pressurised (but gas-tight) container. Being under pressure does mean that the beer will keep its original condition for longer, but that's a bit different from taking on extraneous CO2.Philhttp://ohgoodale.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com