tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post1480018152070311851..comments2024-03-25T18:49:00.608+00:00Comments on The Pub Curmudgeon: A campaign designed by a committeeCurmudgeonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-41414056834752410642017-07-19T20:36:21.072+01:002017-07-19T20:36:21.072+01:00>CAMRA isn't a fire that burns except in a ...>CAMRA isn't a fire that burns except in a few elderly chaps: cookie has a habit of cutting to the chase sometimes very well.Rob Nicholsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14871887147718814739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-56952476426814171562017-01-27T07:03:11.047+00:002017-01-27T07:03:11.047+00:00No, the photo was taken by Matthew Thompson. I am ...No, the photo was taken by Matthew Thompson. I am second from left in the group at the back.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-65482165356356256692017-01-27T02:01:16.626+00:002017-01-27T02:01:16.626+00:00Glad I avoided said nutter :-)
Had enough problems...Glad I avoided said nutter :-)<br />Had enough problems dealing with the one from my own branch :-/<br /><br />From the angle of the photo, think I was sitting next to Mudgie! Or he jumped in my seat when I was heading to the bar (that's me on the far right of photo...)GeordieManchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03926305998637585626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-59056160391929395542017-01-15T16:17:11.647+00:002017-01-15T16:17:11.647+00:00Actually, I'd disagree on the cider front - I ...Actually, I'd disagree on the cider front - I think there's a real revival of interest in cider - but most pubs only offer the cider equivalent of Watney Red Barrel, namely Strongbow. I know a number of pubs who have devoted a handpull to real cider and it's worked pretty well for them - sure it does disproportionately well in summer, and works better when the crowd is younger and more female rather than in "old man" pubs, but that in itself suggests one answer to CAMRA's demographic problems.<br /><br />I think there's is significant synergy in keeping cider in with CAMRA - I'd also throw in a Campaign Against Booker's-Cheapest-Merlot In Pubs. Based on typical pub wine sales you might assume the British people don't really like wine, when off-sales suggest that they do, they just reject the average standard of wine in pubs.qqnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-7150221752504396032017-01-15T15:54:13.752+00:002017-01-15T15:54:13.752+00:00I've had Peerless' Storr lager from cask i...I've had Peerless' Storr lager from cask in a pub and very good it was too - and being a bit less fizzy is probably a good thing. It also seems to have become a bit of a thing for beer festivals to have one cask lager - ISTR having one from Liverpool Organic in the past.qqnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-52314835641461459962017-01-11T09:21:48.391+00:002017-01-11T09:21:48.391+00:00The gentleman did not enter nutter territory by ex...The gentleman did not enter nutter territory by expressing a view on climate change.<br /><br />He entered it by opening with "What is CAMRA doing about the breweries abolishing all their beers"<br /><br />He could have avoided nutter territory had he begun "What is CAMRA doing about climate change and fracking which in my view is altering some of the beers"<br /><br />He then could of gone on to explain his view. That may have been interesting rather than confusing.<br /><br />Once explained he may have accepted a counter view that selective breeding has altered barley, wheat and maize grains in each decade since the war to increase useful starches, increase pest resistance, increase yield and reduce pesticide use and that these might be more significant than climate change. He might have had a view on this himself rather than just twitch a bit because someone questioned rather than accepted his view.<br /><br />Further the gentleman could have been clearer in his vocabulary. Using big words with their accepted meaning rather than a meaning only known to himself. This would have greatly increased clarity.<br /><br />Climate change wasn't why he was a nutter. That's just the horse the nutter rode in on.<br />Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-79847301462851625532017-01-11T00:15:04.432+00:002017-01-11T00:15:04.432+00:00Oh no, not the bloke who believes in climate chang...Oh no, not the bloke who believes in climate change again...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-34466059133458312852017-01-10T09:20:21.280+00:002017-01-10T09:20:21.280+00:00And this is why I talk about an 'approximation...And this is why I talk about an 'approximation' of cask - the days of a black and white cask/keg divide are long behind us.<br /><br />I don't particularly care how they condition the PU from the wood (which is almost certainly lined with PET or something) but whatever they do, the resulting product is substantially different from keg or tank PU and, in my view, markedly superior.<br /><br />Ditto Brewdog's 'LIVE' Dead Pony, Bateman's keykeg-via-handpump range and other pseudo-cask stuff. Might not technically qualify as 'cask conditioned ale', but then neither does re-racked bright beer and it really doesn't matter.<br /><br />If CAMRA is going to embrace all this varied, modern stuff without completing disregarding its principles, there are enough pointers as to where the line between 'real' and 'not real' should be drawn. A few purists will be pissed off, but perhaps not as many as we think. Provided they make clear early on what is and isn't acceptable to promote and do so on a sensible basis.<br /><br />Which, of course, they have singularly failed to do...<br /><br />Ben Viveurhttp://www.benviveur.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-60769275534794809862017-01-09T15:18:23.912+00:002017-01-09T15:18:23.912+00:00You need to get back to blogging, Cookie - the las...You need to get back to blogging, Cookie - the last two comments knock most other bloggers into a cocked hat.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-55734780810686339682017-01-09T15:05:58.236+00:002017-01-09T15:05:58.236+00:00So - it was you who lumbered me with him. I got ou...So - it was you who lumbered me with him. I got out of it by suggesting he email me with something which he duly did. It's an interesting read....John Clarkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00132845616834779091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-26384623913987120482017-01-09T14:23:27.730+00:002017-01-09T14:23:27.730+00:00There is one more stand out memory of the evening ...There is one more stand out memory of the evening and that is meeting a bona fide CAMRA nutter. The type that gives CAMRA a certain reputation.<br /><br />The gentleman was not the chap of unusual appearance who takes centre stage of the photo. That gentlemen had a quiet nature that belied a kindly soul and not half as eccentric has his appearance may suggest. <br /><br />Nor was my gentleman an active member in any nearby branch that I am aware.<br /><br />A chap whose connection to CAMRA is a membership card and a willingness to publicly associate himself with CAMRA and really quite an odd one and no mistake.<br /><br />He approached me and said "Why have CAMRA done nothing about local breweries abolishing their beers?"<br />Why he asked me I don't know. Maybe he thought I wanted to talk to someone in the break or maybe he wanted a conversation.<br /><br />I assumed he was referring to Robinsons discontinuing mild but as he continued it became clear he wasn't.<br />He believed all local breweries had abolished all their beers. This flumoxed me. I then assumed he meant rebranded them, but no that's not what he meant.<br /><br />It became clear that he believed climate change and fracking had altered the chemical make up of water and agricultural produce to render the current beer recipes different from what they had historically been and this had therefore abolished the old recipes. He could not answer why no one else had noticed a change to the local bitter other than to infer people are stupid. Something that has become common as a way of describing those you do not share a world view with. He was uncertain whether the breweries themselves had noticed these changes and adjusted their recipes to compensate or not. Either way they had abolished their beers.<br /><br />He had made a number of connections between things he considered facts, reached an end conclusion and talked as if other people would have made those connections and conclusions and talked absolutely of breweries abolishing their beers. I wondered whether he was simply making a poor job of attempting to connect his own personal hobby horses to beer matters but he appeared sincere in his views rather than cynical.<br /><br />After this rather convoluted and confusing conversation with a stranger I pondered whether to be kind or let him know I thought him a nutcase. That his view may or may not have merit but the way he had expressed it in terms of the confusing manner he framed his argument made it difficult for those not aware of his world view to engage in any understandable frame of reference and harmed rather than strengthened his stance.<br /><br />Instead I made mischief. I spotted local CAMRA chairman Clarkey and said "John, can I introduce you to someone with a fascinating view on the local breweries" and stood back retiring to where you were, thinking that at least you were less of a nutter than others present.Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-3844516471074110842017-01-09T13:37:09.709+00:002017-01-09T13:37:09.709+00:00You can bottle condition a lager, so I don't s...You can bottle condition a lager, so I don't see why you can't cask condition one. Bear in mind all lagers would have been "naturally conditioned" before things like compressed bottled CO2 came along.<br /><br />You could rack lager to cask to finish off and "lager" in cask even.<br /><br />I don't know how the "wooden barrel" Pilsner Urquell they drag out for beer nerd events is conditioned mind, and I expect it is simply normal PU tank conditioned and filled unfiltered to the little "casks" they use. (Someone told me the barrels are lined... which is amusing. SPBW would spit chips I'm sure.)Yvannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-24415491361003799232017-01-09T13:33:41.850+00:002017-01-09T13:33:41.850+00:00Re: "Unless I’ve missed it, there doesn’t see...Re: "Unless I’ve missed it, there doesn’t seem to be any mention in the recommendations of a way to address the problem of an increasingly aged active membership..."<br /><br />The section headed "Education and information" on pages 20-22 does make some suggestions on this issue. <br /><br />https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/rp2016/Revitalisation+Project+Steering+Committee+-+Recommendations+to+the+National+Executive.pdfBen Wilkinsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-45214715266948570952017-01-09T12:50:39.226+00:002017-01-09T12:50:39.226+00:00Surely lager has to be conditioned and stabilised ...Surely lager has to be conditioned and stabilised and so by definition cannot experience cask-conditioning. Kellerbier may be unfiltered and unpasteurised, but it isn't cask-conditioned.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-34511394899606467912017-01-09T12:43:34.341+00:002017-01-09T12:43:34.341+00:00Yes, people are only going to become sufficiently ...Yes, people are only going to become sufficiently enthused to become activists if they feel so angry about something they want to campaign about it. Most of what CAMRA does is, realistically, the regular social round of the "Beer, Brewery and Pub Enthusiasts' Society."Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-83043479877234126602017-01-09T11:28:53.863+00:002017-01-09T11:28:53.863+00:00I attended the meeting above and in parts it was f...I attended the meeting above and in parts it was fairly interesting.<br /><br />It was well attended, clearly many people care about the future direction of this erstwhile institution.<br /><br />A lot of people didn't want any change at all but could not articulate an argument for that other than to attempt to delegitimise the the process by asking that some questions not be asked and accusing the presenters of asking leading questions. They failed but it was interesting to see those attempts.<br /><br />The acceptability of keg beer is a real dividing line. Whilst many members enjoy it, many of those don't want to campaign for it and many very active members see it as a breaking point that would end much of the unpaid volunteer work they do. A few think all keg is rubbish & those that drink it stupid. Toys will be thrown out of prams.<br /><br />Other than quality keg beer the only other issue was to recognise the aging nature of the active members but no one really appeared to have an idea how to address this other than accepting trendy craft keg because that's what the kids like. The notion that asking a new generation to continue your revolution rather than choose their own being not a great offer wasn't considered and many were wrongly dismissive of younger people as "people that don't join things"<br /><br />Mention was made of pub discounts and spoons vouchers without much coherency. No mention of it shifting the membership profile from campaigners to customers. Only mention of what individuals liked. Many liked discounts in pubs they liked but disliked spoons tokens because they disliked spoons. Though they came to a spoons to take part.<br /><br />There was more people than I expected wanting a shift to pub campaigning and more that saw the dangers of the anti alcohol lobby than I expected. Though this is another divider. Many still see a short sighted attack on macro lager as having no future downside to pub price controls thinking their own view that cask beer is a special category of alcohol that can be immune to prohibition is more universal than there own small group.<br /><br />Be interesting to see what comes out of it. My own view is that active volunteers come out when there is something they care about. There's not a lot to care about when all the pubs you like serve the beer you like and when pubs shut they are crap keg ones you never step foot in. CAMRA isn't a fire that burns except in a few elderly chaps. Currently CAMRA is fairly uninspiring as it is very busy doing a lot but not really achieving anything. Lots of activity to send money to St Albans, nothing much to justify the sacrifice of personal time beyond cherry picking the better social activities and swerving the dross.Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-29008297733152220292017-01-09T08:35:18.147+00:002017-01-09T08:35:18.147+00:00Cider did actually bring me into the Campaign orig...Cider did actually bring me into the Campaign originally though, before I'd also developed a taste for keg and cask beer.<br /><br />I agree the definition of "real" cider is a bit muddled.Alex Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07143904362160040410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-68662542430979746502017-01-09T08:31:28.356+00:002017-01-09T08:31:28.356+00:00There was at least a few more members in their 20s...There was at least a few more members in their 20s and 30s (myself included), some of them young women, at the Birmingham revitalisation meeting to be fair, but that picture above did represent the majority of people there.Alex Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07143904362160040410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-69098037884346320392017-01-09T00:38:56.137+00:002017-01-09T00:38:56.137+00:00"The trouble is though, I doubt they will be ...<em>"The trouble is though, I doubt they will be drinking cask beer."</em><br /><br />Seems the key point w.r.t the future of CAMRA. Using myself as an example - I like tasty things. When I moved to the UK I eventually found tasty beer - and it was cask. But as a fairly openminded and non-ancient person I'm open to new things, thus this keg stuff from microbreweries came along and pretty much starting at BrewDog I "discovered" it. I love both cask and keg...<br /><br />But I meet and know lots of folk my age and younger who discovered "tasty beer" via a BrewDog bar, or a plethora or other ways in more recent times. They are not interested in cask (a variety of reasons) - but were it a decade ago they would possibly have become cask drinkers.<br /><br />This potentially represents the beginning of a future of attrition in CAMRA membership rates. <br /><br />Just a quickly typed out thought anyway...<br /><br />(By the way I have a fairly strong sympathy for the idea that CAMRA stick to its guns and be 100% about _cask_ale_... I'd turf out cider/perry (spin it out as a separate org with its own membership) and also reduce any emphasis on "real ale" in other formats (pity about the name of the org... maybe redefine "real ale" as "cask"). This is probably the opposite of "revitalisation" mind and may faster cement a future death of CAMRA.)Yvannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-36169639543017933782017-01-08T21:52:23.542+00:002017-01-08T21:52:23.542+00:00I would not assume that to be the case. Tastes ch...I would not assume that to be the case. Tastes change and perhaps the "craft" beer crowd will discover cask. In the US things change dramatically and quickly. Ten years ago wine was the rage; now it is "craft" beers. There is no reason cask could not be next. In the UK young drinkers as they go grey and become middle aged may well turn to cask. It really is difficult to predict.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04039590363732278703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-80854158630657032602017-01-08T20:24:20.610+00:002017-01-08T20:24:20.610+00:00The trouble is though, I doubt they will be drinki...The trouble is though, I doubt they will be drinking cask beer.Citrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362292814716606046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-26337280821604406922017-01-08T20:14:28.500+00:002017-01-08T20:14:28.500+00:00"But it isn’t intrinsically better than every..."But it isn’t intrinsically better than every other kind of beer"<br /><br />Surely the belief that *IT IS* is the fundamental point of CAMRA though? <br /><br />This doesn't mean arguing that all cask beer is better than all non-cask beer, that all cask beer is good, or that all keg is bad - all three of which are positions variously held by some of the die-hards).<br /><br />But I think there is a pretty strong case that for any given beer, cask conditioning to optimal condition will always be better than any of the alternatives, and that this holds up right across the spectrum of beer styles and the entire world.<br /><br />Personally I've yet to be convinced otherwise and I've been lucky enough to enjoy rare cask (or something approximating cask) versions of several beers that are almost always non real. Guess what, in just about every case, THE REAL VERSIONS WERE BETTER. I also drink quite a bit of keg these days, purely because the styles of beer I happen to favour are often only available in that format down here. <br /><br />But the fact that the real versions are often extraordinarily hard to find (e.g. Pilsner Urguell, Cantillon) or even one-off 'only cask in existence' deals is hugely frustrating and to me underlines what CAMRA really should be doing. Campaigning. For. Real. Ale.Ben Viveurhttp://www.benviveur.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-53744307042774989442017-01-08T16:47:48.908+00:002017-01-08T16:47:48.908+00:00A good all round review of CAMRA’s Revitalisation ...A good all round review of CAMRA’s Revitalisation Project Mudge, which has saved me the job of writing my own review. Having attended one of the consultation meetings earlier last year, I came away with the feeling that some form of compromise would be reached between those who wish to modernise the campaign and those who want it to stay exactly where it is today. <br /><br />This was quite evident from the breakdown of the attendees at the meeting which, incidentally was held at the Southwark Brewing Company’s railway arch premises underneath the approaches to London Bridge station.<br /><br />Unless I’ve missed it, there doesn’t seem to be any mention in the recommendations of a way to address the problem of an increasingly aged active membership; and yes I include myself in this group! As I’ve said countless times before CAMRA really needs to not only attract younger members into the Campaign, but needs to encourage them to play a more active role. I’m not sure what the answer is though, and it doesn’t look like the Revitalisation Committee know either.<br /><br />On the minus side, not just sticking with cider, but upping its profile in terms of campaigning, will only serve to dilute activities on the beer front. I agree with your summation of the whole cider sector, as it currently stands within CAMRA, and the lack of a suitable definition of “real cider”, does rather make a mockery of the whole business.<br /><br />Reading between the lines it appears the committee got cold feet over spinning off APPLE as a separate campaign, partially due to pressure from current committed cider activists, but also due to concerns expressed by real cider and perry producers, who felt that separation could prove disastrous for the availability of their products. The view of the latter group was there are just too few cider enthusiasts to sustain a successful independent campaigning organisation.<br /><br />This to me suggests there just isn’t the demand for “real” cider and perry which the activists within APPLE would have us believe, and that whilst the popularity of apple and pear products at CAMRA festivals may suggest otherwise, much of the sales at these events might well be down to “distress purchasing” by festival goers who just don’t like beer.<br /><br />If “traditional” cider diehards within CAMRA believe otherwise, then surely this should have been the ideal opportunity for them to step up to the plate and launch their own, high-profile campaign. Continuing hanging onto CAMRA’s coat-tails, in support of a drink which is completely different to beer, does seem rather defeatist to me. <br /><br />So not an earth shattering report, but it will be intersecting to see how it is viewed by the membership as a whole; or should that be those members who actively care about the future of the Campaign and maybe its very survival in the longer term.<br /><br />Paul Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09678639237696546268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-9868485302521238222017-01-08T16:43:19.274+00:002017-01-08T16:43:19.274+00:00I don't think CAMRA needs to worry about attra...I don't think CAMRA needs to worry about attracting younger members. I can't see a problem with members being mostly old or middle aged; since the young drinkers of today will soon be older and replace the old members who have passed on. If middle aged men decide CAMRA's future it will be with a middle aged sensibility soon to be shared by future middle aged people. Kieran Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309306469722070363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-54269313631744554302017-01-08T16:25:37.154+00:002017-01-08T16:25:37.154+00:00Good summary Mudge. I think lack of interest in re...Good summary Mudge. I think lack of interest in real ale in the "young",rather than disinterest in Committees,is the danger for cask.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com