tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post3283284252147552141..comments2024-03-29T08:01:51.705+00:00Comments on The Pub Curmudgeon: Not in front of the childrenCurmudgeonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-61338910901826945662011-08-28T20:02:48.595+01:002011-08-28T20:02:48.595+01:00Yes, you do have to wonder how some people who cla...Yes, you do have to wonder how some people who claim to be involved in the licensed trade seem to find so much time to post comments on blogs...Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-45468139703649994122011-08-28T19:13:50.174+01:002011-08-28T19:13:50.174+01:00Just a little point of interest. I've seen com...Just a little point of interest. I've seen comments on other blogs by people claiming to be not just 'in the trade' but successful owners of pubs etc. one claiming to have 200 staff. They all have the following in common:<br />A) They claim they are smokers<br />B) They think the ban is a good idea.<br />C) They can't see any problem with 'nipping outside'.<br />D) They are against any amendment to the ban.<br /><br />Not only does the above question any form of business common sense BUT, considering they are supposed to run a business or two, they do seem to have an inordinate amount of time to spend on these blogs. Must be a good business to be in as I, certainly, didn't have the time when I was in business.<br /><br />Maybe it's me but, just wondering, like.Franknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-85049291325985387902011-08-26T23:48:27.860+01:002011-08-26T23:48:27.860+01:00"Fredrik, sorry for calling you a nobjockey. ..."Fredrik, sorry for calling you a nobjockey. "<br />Luke don't worry about it, no offense was taken! I have been threatend with knives, I have had my scaphoid broken for me, had my ribs broken for me, I have been on the recieving end of many head butt attempts , I have had my head kicked in so many times that my pupils do not dilate in stereo in reaction to light, I had a car try to run me down on the pavement, I once had my jaw dislocated for me by three gentlemen that mistaked me for some other gentleman that they had a disagreemnt with, I have had much worse than all this done to me that I can not talk about for very sensible reasons, the common denominator in all this must be my sparkling personality! I took no offense in you describing me as you did, I understood it with in the context that you wrote it, I am more interested in understanding your position than mere expressions of frustrations of having to deal with me!<br />Best wishes<br />Fredrik.Fredrik Eichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09985306468872702882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-27338473914043441982011-08-26T20:05:19.070+01:002011-08-26T20:05:19.070+01:00It has been remarked before that the smoking ban h...It has been remarked before that the smoking ban has been less likely to deter real ale enthusiasts from visiting pubs, because that is something they can only get in pubs. Thus they have an ulterior purpose in going to the pub beyond just normal socialising.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-59812785849477823742011-08-26T16:48:37.635+01:002011-08-26T16:48:37.635+01:00I'm a smoker and I haven't cut down the nu...I'm a smoker and I haven't cut down the number of times I go to the pub since the ban came in. Why?<br />1. I drink real ale. Yes, I know you can get bottle-conditioned beer to take home but it's not the same.<br />2. I like pubs. Drinking in a pub is better and more soiable than drinking at home.<br />I find the ban irritating and I would like to see it withdrawn or at least amended. However, I do find some of the comments from those who have stopping using pubs since the ban quite extraordinary. Yes, you used to be able to smoke in the pub but was that the point of going there? <br />Most of the people I know in my local smoke. I don't know anyone who has stopped going to the pub just because of the ban. Honestly.Billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-21260944951442899592011-08-25T08:37:12.076+01:002011-08-25T08:37:12.076+01:00"it's time to move on"
Well, the &q...<i>"it's time to move on"</i><br /><br />Well, the "health lobby" are certainly moving on - from tobacco to alcohol. Even if you believe that the smoking ban will never be relaxed and that complaining about it is crying over spilt milk, it offers a clear blueprint for what is already happening to alcohol. Unfortunately, CAMRA and many industry representatives naively fail to recognise the threat.<br /><br />I have said in the past that it is entirely possibly to run a successful pub even in a market that is declining overall. The Magnet in Stockport is a good example of the kind of thing you are talking about. <br /><br />You will find plenty of beer bloggers who will bleat on in a blinkered, Pollyannaish way about how wonderful Pub X is and what a good job it is doing promoting quality beer. But that has to be seen in the context of an overall on-trade beer market that has declined by 6% in the past year and 25% in the past four years.<br /><br />Part of my role in life is to be the skeleton at the feast and point out such unpalatable home truths. To get to the Magnet, you have to pass the closed and boarded George, a pub that must be three or four times the size.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-20785275581733646102011-08-25T08:23:13.257+01:002011-08-25T08:23:13.257+01:00"... said that the best thing that ever happe..."... said that the best thing that ever happened to the pub was the smoking ban in 2007"<br /><br />Good for him. There's no reason why, staying non smoking, he shouldn't be just as successful with an amendment, probably more so, as non smokers migrate from the smoking pubs.<br /><br />But it's more likely to be the other way round, the very reason a lot of the trade is so against any amendment.Franknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-46297548878047758062011-08-25T04:34:50.843+01:002011-08-25T04:34:50.843+01:00Its not just the smokers abandoning ship. A merry ...Its not just the smokers abandoning ship. A merry band of friends/colleagues who used to regularly go to the pub have all bailed out.<br />Less than 50% were smokers but 100% thought the pubs had done a poor job of retaining customers.<br />The non smokers are as pissed off as the smokers in seeing pubs turning into shitty cafés.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-77799992185608769082011-08-24T19:42:17.047+01:002011-08-24T19:42:17.047+01:00Hello Curmudgeon, I am anonymous post 17.30. Thank...Hello Curmudgeon, I am anonymous post 17.30. Thanks for responding, I appreciate that this site is a forum about the 2007 ban but I still think it's time to move on. I was talking to another pub landlord on Monday (my other local) who is experiencing record turnover and it's all cask ale. He's been the landlord for 26 years and runs the archetypal wet-led pub , specialising in cask beer from a local micro and has seen sales double in 4 years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-59487482670241010572011-08-24T19:32:00.572+01:002011-08-24T19:32:00.572+01:00Oh, and Fredrik, sorry for calling you a nobjockey...Oh, and Fredrik, sorry for calling you a nobjockey. Insults on the internet are rarely deserved.Saga Of Nailshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891668833405154713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-79574870271718109752011-08-24T19:08:10.081+01:002011-08-24T19:08:10.081+01:00Curmudgeon, I'll stop using the word boycott, ...Curmudgeon, I'll stop using the word boycott, if it makes you happy. :)<br /><br />Last night I went to a local pub that I don't frequent enough. They have a fine, covered and seated smoking area but because of complaints from one neighbour they have to close this strictly at ten o clock, every evening. So later I went out for a fag out the front and had a nice five minute chat with the landlady who I hadn't spoken to before and after she went in had an interesting ten minute chat with a bloke who likes the rain and thinks that Bristol has funny weather. Anyhow, I wouldn't have met these two had it not been for the smoking ban.<br /><br />I know a lot of smokers who have absolutely no problem with the ban at all, so to say that pubs are not welcoming for smokers these days is a sweeping generalisation and not true for a certain percentage of customers. <br /><br />Fredrik and Anonymous, My pub shall not be serving [evening] food nor shall it admit children. I know of at least ten or fifteen Real Ale pubs in Bristol that also do this, and most of them are doing a good trade. I understand that it will not be the same outside of cities and in other parts of the country, but not all pubs are turning into family restaurants. <br /><br />I understand that many people do not like smoking on the street which is why I seriously don't understand why more pubs are not using their back yards or gardens to put up decent shelters. Most pubs have some kind of area that they can use. Around here, the pubs with the best shelters are often the most busiest, especially in the wintertime.Saga Of Nailshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891668833405154713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-22439027867148630802011-08-24T18:49:03.386+01:002011-08-24T18:49:03.386+01:00"could you try and start some threads with a ...<i>"could you try and start some threads with a degree of positivity about pubs at all?"</i><br /><br />Could you please try not to dictate what I should write on my blog, thank you very much?<br /><br />Maybe you didn't notice that it says in the blurb on the left, <i>"The smoking ban is what prompted the creation of this blog back then and, while it touches on many other topics, it remains essentially its core theme."</i><br /><br />Are you going to go on <a href="http://cfrankdavis.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">Frank Davis's blog</a> and suggest he stops "banging on about the smoking ban"?<br /><br />Perhaps I'll stop blogging entirely and just leave this as an open comment thread (and the original post wasn't about, and didn't mention, the smoking ban).Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-70361140660040250482011-08-24T18:43:36.196+01:002011-08-24T18:43:36.196+01:00Nails wrote: "Some smokers are to all intents...Nails wrote: <i>"Some smokers are to all intents and purposes boycotting pubs these day."</i><br /><br />Oh no they're not! <br /><br />To continue insisting that they are, when I, Fredrik Eich and others have explained at great length why this is not the case, is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la la la la!"<br /><br />Any more of this nonsense will be classed as trolling and deleted.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-49989942354387021682011-08-24T17:40:30.623+01:002011-08-24T17:40:30.623+01:00Mr Nails, I started this off by using the word &qu...Mr Nails, I started this off by using the word "boycott". This was probably the wrong word. It implies that I would enjoy visiting pubs but choose not to in order to make a point - like Liverpudlians boycotting the Sun newspaper. In fact, as Curm explained, I no longer visit pubs because I would rather smoke without leaving my seat and going outside. Publicans need now to concentrate on selling food to families.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-32500285115844483982011-08-24T17:30:07.277+01:002011-08-24T17:30:07.277+01:00The landlord of my local pub has just celebrated 4...The landlord of my local pub has just celebrated 40 years behind the bar, and was interviewed on the day of his anniversary by the local paper, quote:<br /><br />"... said that the best thing that ever happened to the pub was the smoking ban in 2007, while the worst was the Monopolies Commission, which he believes might have prevented the big pubcos gaining too much of an influence in the trade."<br /><br />I have been a regular at his place for over 10 years and it has never been busier. I am staggered by the amount of vitriol still flowing on this subject 4 years on, some people are obviously still passionate about pubs though they claim not to use them anymore. It's time to move on.<br /><br />Curmedgeon, I started following and enjoying your blog about 6 months ago but it has become a bit one-track recently, could you try and start some threads with a degree of positivity about pubs at all? Like the rise in cask ale sales for instance. Or the opportunities being created all over the UK by the PubCos disposing of their estates? I can think of several micro breweries who are buying their first pub and turning them around.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-20587954533413901892011-08-24T14:31:32.815+01:002011-08-24T14:31:32.815+01:00We don't go to Pubs because we don't enjoy...We don't go to Pubs because we don't enjoy it, any more. Simple as. If the pubs feel they are being 'punished' then maybe they should have been more vociferous on behalf of their smoking customers pre ban. I/we do not have any duty to put up with a rubbish atmosphere just to keep them alive.<br /><br />Become active in obtaining amendments or repeals and we'll be back there. Do nothing then take a hike.Franknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-30182262069412672172011-08-24T12:52:53.977+01:002011-08-24T12:52:53.977+01:00It's simply the change of use.
I enjoy a ciga...It's simply the change of use.<br /><br />I enjoy a cigarette with my cup of coffee, so I don't go to cafes any more either.<br /><br />The idea of having a coffee inside then going outside to smoke in the street is just ridiculous.<br /><br />Try to understand, I am hardly likely to stand outside 50% exposed to the elements for the purposes of denormalisation, just to keep the pubs open.<br /><br />Denormalisation<br /><br />"However, internationally, the term is also used to encompass efforts challenging notions that smoking ought to be regarded as routine or normal, particularly in public settings.<br /><br />Hammond et al state that “social denormalisation” strategies seek “to change the broad social norms around using tobacco—to push tobacco use out of the charmed circle of normal, desirable practice to being an abnormal practice”.<br />tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/17/1/25.full<br /><br />Last time they went for alcohol first and tobacco later, this time they've just done it the other way around.<br /><br /><br />Guidelines For Alcohol Consumption Are Inadequate For Cancer Prevention<br /><br />"There is increasing evidence that links alcohol consumption to cancer. The WHO International Agency of Research on Cancer has stated, based on evidence, that alcohol is carcinogenic in both animals and humans." <br /><br />"Based on the evidence, "there is no level of alcohol consumption for which cancer risk is null."<br />medicalnewstoday.com/releases/230871.php<br /><br />Instead of sulking about absent smokers and expensive smoking sheds, it looks like you have bigger problems heading your way.<br /><br /><br />RoseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-12343501404292215262011-08-24T11:26:38.052+01:002011-08-24T11:26:38.052+01:00Hi Saga,
I agree that punishing pubs is not reaso...Hi Saga,<br /><br />I agree that punishing pubs is not reasonable, however since the ban pubs really are a bit of a chore for smokers, you did not change your offering voluntarily, but the offering changed, and as a smoker pubs are now rubbish for me for six months of the year, and pretty unwelcoming the other six months.<br /><br />I wish you well, I really do, but you cant count on my custom.<br /><br />Regards,<br />JonathanJon Campbellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-13620234247680229062011-08-24T11:10:05.718+01:002011-08-24T11:10:05.718+01:00Luke, I went to pubs ~300 days a year before the s...Luke, I went to pubs ~300 days a year before the smoking ban and now I am a fair weather pub goer and make it ~20 days a year. I am not boycotting pubs , I go very much less to pubs because <br /><br />1, Many pubs I would go to before are now little more than smokefree restaurants that just happen to have beer pumps. I don't like smokefree restaurants but if i am going to go to one it might as well be a decent one.<br /><br />2, I hate standing out in the street smoking and I hate not being able to smoke inside even more.<br /><br />3, Even if I did force myself to ignore point 2, there are simply less people to meet when I get to the pub because of points 1 and 2.<br /><br /><br />All of this has nothing to do with addiction, this has everything to do reasonable expectations when one is handing over hard money for service.<br /><br />And I think it is easy to show this because if you abolished all public smokefree places, force everywhere to allow smoking against the wishes of customers and businesses<br />and it turned out that non-smokers would go out less for similar reasons to above. How could one make the argument that they would be boycotting businesses? It would much harder to make the argument that they are doing it because they are addicted - addicted to what? Addicted to smokefree restaurants? I find it highly plausible that many non smokers could abandon pubs all together if they lost their pre 2007.5 quota of non-smoking areas and smokefree areas by law , overnight, because they would rightly argue that they wanted to use those places. That does not make them addicts, the cause would be the law not them as customers.Fredrik Eichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09985306468872702882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-71280275026227163862011-08-24T02:56:30.405+01:002011-08-24T02:56:30.405+01:00Some smokers are to all intents and purposes boyco...Some smokers are to all intents and purposes boycotting pubs these day. I don't have any kind of persecution complex at all because I run successful pubs not struggling ones, (so far) and I have not found myself lacking for customers. But people who are making the decision to not go to pubs any more are essentially punishing the pubs, whether they mean to or not. <br /><br />Pubs are in trouble and the only way that they will stage a recovery is if people start supporting them more. If people decide to stay at home then it is only going to make the problem worse.Saga Of Nailshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891668833405154713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-58802300034808288782011-08-23T22:05:04.422+01:002011-08-23T22:05:04.422+01:00"my main gripe is with certain smokers punish...<i>"my main gripe is with certain smokers punishing pubs when the pubs were mostly on their side"</i><br /><br />This argument is utter nonsense. How many times does it have to be said to you, smokers are NOT punishing or boycotting pubs. <br /><br />It's no more reasonable than saying real ale drinkers are boycotting keg pubs.<br /><br />You seem to have some kind of persecution complex there.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-91603095048529802282011-08-23T21:18:26.015+01:002011-08-23T21:18:26.015+01:00Curmudgeon, no I don't think that non smokers ...Curmudgeon, no I don't think that non smokers have gone running (back) to the pubs in drives at all, far from it. But non smokers still make up at least 50% of the pub going population, and I suspect that percentage is going to slowly increase in the future.<br /><br />I'm not trying to blame smokers for the ban, I'm just saying that sometimes certain smokers didn't help their own cause. You can maybe understand my frustration when I had ashtrays on every table and plenty of signs politely asking people to use the ashtrays and still I had to spend three hours every week sweeping the yard and picking the butts out of the flowers and plants that I had bought to make the area appear more pleasant. <br /><br />We live in different areas of the country and I'm not surprised that attitudes are different where we respectively are.<br /><br />As I mentioned, my main gripe is with certain smokers punishing pubs when the pubs were mostly on their side, and in fact spend a lot of money to ensure that smokers still feel welcome despite the over zealous legislation.<br /><br />As I said, I am planning to spend 30 - 40 K of my own money on a decent smoking shelter, but attitudes like Mr Fredrik's make me question if this is a worthwhile thing to do.Saga Of Nailshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891668833405154713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-44314341635851506992011-08-23T17:59:57.325+01:002011-08-23T17:59:57.325+01:00Compared to most other groups, cyclists are a good...Compared to most other groups, cyclists are a good current example, smokers generally obeyed the rules. Of course there were anti social exceptions, but there was no need to smoke where it wasn't permitted. Go in a smoking carriage, the top deck of a bus, the back of an aircraft. No problem. The problem was that non smokers on average don't drink enough to keep there own pubs going. That's why there were so few no smoking pubs before the ban, although they were starting to appear. Ideally, so many no smoking pubs would have opened, that a ban would have seemed bizarre. Don't blame smokers for that not happening.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-26842492935953717962011-08-23T17:14:19.562+01:002011-08-23T17:14:19.562+01:00"their habit was affecting others to the poin...<i>"their habit was affecting others to the point where people were not frequenting venues because of others' habits."</i> <br /><br />Of course most pubs have been mobbed by non-smokers since the ban, haven't they?<br /><br />And my experience as a customer was that, pre-ban, where non-smoking areas did exist in pubs they were pretty well observed. More evidence that you seem to inhabit some bizarre parallel universe.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-20084937307311941572011-08-23T17:08:09.812+01:002011-08-23T17:08:09.812+01:00I have had signs up specifically telling people no...I have had signs up specifically telling people not to put fag ends in the plant pots, or the floor but to use the ashtray, but if i barred everybody who ignored that rule it would be a quite quiet pub indeed. Barring people is rarely the answer to anything. Barring people for minor things is one sure way to a pub that loses money. I've seen it happen in quite a few pubs.Saga Of Nailshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891668833405154713noreply@blogger.com