tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post5868273523300893554..comments2024-03-25T18:49:00.608+00:00Comments on The Pub Curmudgeon: Hazy thinkingCurmudgeonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-84041711582983742192012-04-03T11:12:55.309+01:002012-04-03T11:12:55.309+01:00The point of Cask Marque is to act as a scheme to ...The point of Cask Marque is to act as a scheme to raise standards in the industry more than to be a guide for consumers - there's a subtle difference. Average standards of cellarmanship have undoubtedly improved over the past twenty years, maybe to some extent due to losing many of the more marginal/less enthusiastic outlets. However, in my experience there's still plenty of lacklustre-to-poor beer to be found, see <a href="http://pubcurmudgeon.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/off-grid-drinking.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> for example.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-7778829320588633802012-04-02T22:53:09.078+01:002012-04-02T22:53:09.078+01:00As Cask Marque points out, excellent beer is not a...As Cask Marque points out, excellent beer is not always found in every Cask Marque pub, and I'd add that it can often be found (reliably) in pubs which don't wear this badge. I can see how tourists, young persons (and anyone else who can't spot a crap boozer as soon as they walk in) might like a paternal hand on their shoulder as they hunt desperately for a decent pint, but I can't say I've ever taken any notice. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I can't remember the last bad pint I had. Or maybe my memory's going.StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-87374922998709633032012-04-02T21:05:14.752+01:002012-04-02T21:05:14.752+01:00Have yet to knowingly try any commercially availab...Have yet to knowingly try any commercially available "un-fined" beers, but as a former full-mash homebrewer I never fined my beers! With the correct brewing techniques, a bit of patience and a decent yeast strain all beers should clear naturally on their own, without the aid of finings.Paul Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09678639237696546268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-53593721087772903812012-04-02T14:13:45.591+01:002012-04-02T14:13:45.591+01:00I completely agree with StringersBeer comments tha...I completely agree with StringersBeer comments that "Cask Marque tells you only that when the assessor last visited the beers on sale were (a) clear, (b) cool and didn't (c) smell or (d) taste off. It's a marvel that anyone feels the need to advertise that they're not utterly incompetent. You'd hope that this would be a given."<br /><br />Unfortunately it is not a given and that appears to be back up by comments on this post. Of course the beer is not always perfect in every Cask Marque pub, but any feedback we get from the public is investigated and corrective training provided and (sometimes) investment in equipment made. We may not be perfect but we have done much to improve beer quality in this country. We welcome all constructive criticism so please feel free to email me if you get a bad pint in a Cask Marque pub at ali@cask-marque.co.uk and I would be happy to check it out.Cask Marquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16769492990060155287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-19050493983223443092012-04-01T16:17:01.118+01:002012-04-01T16:17:01.118+01:00Honestly, not often enough for it to have fixed th...Honestly, not often enough for it to have fixed the connection in my head. There are usually enough danger signs before I get as far as ordering a drink that it doesn't happen often. The last pint of cloudy beer we had, the pub didn't want to give us, but we asked for a taste, it was delicious, so I drank it anyway. (Much to their disgust...)Baileyhttp://boakandbailey.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-19602296822809372722012-04-01T15:27:28.413+01:002012-04-01T15:27:28.413+01:00Bailey wrote: "I guess I was lucky not to liv...Bailey wrote: <i>"I guess I was lucky not to live through the years when cloudy beer meant bad beer and upset your tum but, for whatever reason, I don't have make that association."</i><br /><br />Do you not still occasionally encounter crappy, cloudy beer, especially when drinking "off-grid" in unfamiliar pubs? I certainly do. Less common than thirty years ago, thankfully, but far from unknown.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-53132461763748157832012-04-01T15:04:43.713+01:002012-04-01T15:04:43.713+01:00Well, I've been in enough pubs over the years ...Well, I've been in enough pubs over the years where the beer was one or more of cloudy, lukewarm, lacking in condition, pongy or with an off flavour to suggest that a scheme that ensures pubs get the basics right must be a good idea.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-12001671971134772512012-04-01T10:28:35.138+01:002012-04-01T10:28:35.138+01:00Cask Marque tells you only that when the assessor ...Cask Marque tells you only that when the assessor last visited the beers on sale were (a) clear, (b) cool and didn't (c) smell or (d) taste off. And that someone has paid for the assessment. <br />It's a marvel that anyone feels the need to advertise that they're not utterly incompetent. You'd hope that this would be a given.StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-70519610657709320792012-03-31T17:04:20.621+01:002012-03-31T17:04:20.621+01:00I’m sure everyone agrees that the old excuse for b...I’m sure everyone agrees that the old excuse for bad beer of “It’s real ale – it’s meant to be cloudy” is unacceptable, but I haven’t heard that for ages. If clarity is not an intended characteristic of the beer, then a simple note to that effect at the point of dispense would resolve this issue to everyone’s satisfaction. If you only like clear beer, you wouldn’t order it.<br /><br />I'd just like to tackle one point: that we shouldn't drink with our eyes. Experiments have shown that we eat with our eyes: identical foodstuffs, some coloured with tasteless food dyes, were offered to test subjects, who generally tended to assert that the dyed foods and the natural-coloured ones actually tasted different, when the only difference was the colour. Blue was a particularly unpopular colour, and most considered blue carrots to be unpalatable.<br /><br />So the dictum that you should drink only with thine eyes runs contrary to human behaviour. If you don’t like the look of something, that will prejudice how you taste it. It’s not logical, I know, but then who said people were logical?Neville Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10923209266005338452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-54937949422980033932012-03-31T16:57:06.489+01:002012-03-31T16:57:06.489+01:00I don't think a pint HAS to be 100% clear on e...I don't think a pint HAS to be 100% clear on every occasion - apart from anything else, you can wait a long time for a freshly drawn pint to drop bright, especially if it has been pumped through a sparkler - but as well as the eyes and the mouth, a drinker should use their nose. Beer that's cloudy because it's bad will smell bad. Just as with wine that's corked, there should be no need to taste it. If you get a pint you feel unhappy with, for whatever reason, it's up to the bar person to resolve the problem, either with a replacement, an alternative or a refund, but not with a refusal or a rebuttal.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07108618385043353032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-12315308864448950292012-03-31T07:52:01.010+01:002012-03-31T07:52:01.010+01:00Oops: *unfined* (phone's auto-correct lodges i...Oops: *unfined* (phone's auto-correct lodges its vote against the idea, at any rate)Baileyhttp://boakandbailey.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-85358686956178553122012-03-31T07:45:55.389+01:002012-03-31T07:45:55.389+01:00(John -- I'm a bloke.)
This is about the mos...(John -- I'm a bloke.) <br /><br />This is about the most bad-tempered lot of comments I've seen in a while. <br /><br />We've never had a British beer *advertised* as unlined. How's that?<br /><br />If people choose to read snobbery into one thing or another (still yet to see anyone point at a particular pronouncement to back that up in this case) there's not much anyone can do about it, just as there's not much a musician can do about people hearing satanic messages on their records when they're played backwards.Baileyhttp://boakandbailey.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-9826734198318455562012-03-31T00:03:22.880+01:002012-03-31T00:03:22.880+01:00Well who says unfined beer has to be hazy? As I ha...Well who says unfined beer has to be hazy? As I have said before Dave Porter when he ran Porter Brewing Co, and now he runs Outstanding Brewery didn't and doesn't fine his beer. And it's clear. Ditto for Marble. As for Black Isle Yellowhammer I understand this is usually and will continue to be fined and clear. <br /><br />I guess others might well do the same so it's cobblers for Bailey to say he/she (I always forget which is which) to they haven't had an unfined beer so far when what they really mean is they haven't had a cloudy "craft" (cos it;s always going to be "craft isn't it?) beer, They may well have had a clear unfined beer and not know about it.<br /><br />The thing that gets me is that all this is being presented as something new and exciitng when it's nothing of the sort. Years ago seasoned Holts drinkers in North Manchester reckined the bitter was better with a slight cast (not the pea soup some of the contributors to these comments ssem to be wetting their pants about) and one licensee was known to go down to the cellar and give his casks a kick if his beer was coming out too clear.<br /><br />I'm with you Mudgie at the end of the day this ia all about snobbery and pretention - "My dear, clear beer is so 20th century, don't you know?" Oh puh-leese.John Clarkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00132845616834779091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-22365671105625177842012-03-30T23:48:56.150+01:002012-03-30T23:48:56.150+01:00Interestingly while at a beer festival last summer...Interestingly while at a beer festival last summer I had the chance to try some of the same Moor beers in both fined and unfined states. I very much enjoyed them both, probably preferring the unfined, and I fully support allowing brewers to have their beer served how they intend it to be brewed. Also, would SIBA turn away a British brewed Heffeweisz from a competition because it's cloudy?wowninjashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17665656992357583145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-51763346840191071242012-03-30T20:34:20.499+01:002012-03-30T20:34:20.499+01:00Mudgie, you've got it right here. If a beer ob...Mudgie, you've got it right here. If a beer obviously isn't meant to be clear (eg weissbier) or is clearly marked as unfined, then it's OK for it to be cloudy. Otherwise clarity should be the norm, although a bit of chill haze is sometimes inevitable. I think we can all tell the difference between a pint that's a bit hazy and something resembling soup with bits of beak and twig floating in it.Billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-16120995351093117482012-03-30T20:25:33.859+01:002012-03-30T20:25:33.859+01:00I tried unfined black isle yellowhammer next to th...I tried unfined black isle yellowhammer next to the standard yellowhammer and was amazed at the taste and smell difference. The unfined version was fantastic, great taste and a joy to drink. Something I would look out for and hunt down! The normal version was just ok, something you would order if there was nothing better available.<br />I enjoy the Moor unfined beers too, had them in a few Nicholson bars before and always an enjoyable pint.Nathannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-49473459419400234152012-03-30T19:49:09.457+01:002012-03-30T19:49:09.457+01:00A hell of a lot of people start drinking with thei...A hell of a lot of people start drinking with their eyes, and cannot get over the fact that a bit of haze isn't necessarily a bad thing. Some of the nicest cask ale that I have had has had a distinct haze of some kind.<br />There is only one guaranteed way to get a perfect pint every time, and that is to drink smoothflow, not cask ale. :pSaga Of Nailshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891668833405154713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-19396319900595136222012-03-30T19:04:08.605+01:002012-03-30T19:04:08.605+01:00Curmudgeon -- questioning people's motives (di...Curmudgeon -- questioning people's motives (dick-waving, snobbery) with no real evidence is a really quick way to shut down debate. Personally, I'm finding it really easy not to detect a vein of snobbery: I don't have any doubt that this trend has been prompted by curious brewers wanting to experiment. Whether they'll achieve anything by it, who knows, as I haven't tasted an unfined beer yet, but tinkering for tinkerings sake is legitimate, isn't it, if we want brewers to be creative? Otherwise, we get stagnation.Baileyhttp://boakandbailey.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-16594673231534274132012-03-30T18:51:57.787+01:002012-03-30T18:51:57.787+01:00"as long as it isn't an excuse for the la...<i>"as long as it isn't an excuse for the lazy in the trade to ruin ales that are quite clearly meant to be served bright"</i><br /><br />That is the concern about what might happen - and if the word starts to get about again that cask beer is often cloudy, it will put very many people off drinking it.<br /><br />And it's impossible not to detect a distinct vein of snobbery about all this, that clarity in beer is something "for the little people".Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-49029381796314556782012-03-30T18:39:44.583+01:002012-03-30T18:39:44.583+01:00Tut tut Chris. It is almost always a mistake to ca...Tut tut Chris. It is almost always a mistake to call someone you don't know a half wit - especially when it is clear you haven't read the original post which gives a lot more context and was part of a wider discussion with views for and against. It wasn't even on my blog. Mind you as you are in marketing, I suppose you'll have a lot of experience of half wits, so I won't judge you by your own standards and those of your peers. There are many other reasons why you shouldn't do it too, but hopefully you can see where I'm coming from.<br /><br />For those that would like the full picture, I'd look at the original link, but reproduced below is the bit I chipped in, which I think is a little more nuanced that Chris gives me credit for. FYI - The brewer referred to as "Stuart" is Stuart Howe, Head Brewer of Sharps. If Chris Mair fancies calling him a half wit too, let me know where and when and I'll buy a ticket. I of course as everyone knows will simply turn my other cheek. Being slagged off for my beer knowledge by a marketing man is pretty much a compliment and will be treated as such.<br /><br /><i>I wonder about this small trend. This is why: "Fining beer has an incredibly small impact on flavour." as Stuart says and to most eyes, clear beer is more appealing.<br /><br />Though at times I understand that it may not be so due to hop rates, etc etc and if so and the beer tastes good, then no problem. Other circumstances have been described by Stuart and that's good enough for me.<br /><br />I think this is becoming some kind of artisanal snobbery whereby beer is sent out cloudy as some silly dick waving exercise. Cloudy isn't necessarily a bad thing, but to elevate it into a virtue is stretching it a bit. This is another Yankee "innovation" we seem to wish to follow blindly. Even if you keep some of the so called good things, you'll also keep some of the bad things.<br /><br />Finally your words "I wish more brewers were doing this; serving unfined beer with a note to customers saying it is meant to be that way because it tastes better" would seen to be just an opinion stated as fact.<br /><br />PS. You can hide a multitude of sins in a dark beer. </i>Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-71516752523318791782012-03-30T18:00:10.097+01:002012-03-30T18:00:10.097+01:00If hazy beer is a growing trend that consumers wil...If hazy beer is a growing trend that consumers will accept all well and fine, as long as it isn't an excuse for the lazy in the trade to ruin ales that are quite clearly meant to be served bright, I don't see what all the fuss is about. <br /><br />Unfortunately, Mudge is quite right, there is still a propensity to drink with the eyes first. I have had some perfectly good ale (I've drunk and sold) that during the winter months has occasionally had a "chill haze" ... some would drink it some wouldn't ... good customer service dictated that those who returned it got something else ...Publican Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04533484978463975994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-22459324889634265922012-03-30T17:33:44.053+01:002012-03-30T17:33:44.053+01:00A couple of questions:
Does unfined mean that no ...A couple of questions:<br /><br />Does unfined mean that no fining agent has been added at any stage?<br /><br />My understanding is that beer can be cleared without the addition of fining agents, so saying a beer is unfined does not imply the beer would be hazy. Is this correct? <br /><br />On the other hand, haze can be due to tannin/protein being present rather than suspended material such as yeast. In other words what would be the expected presentation of a beer termed 'unfined'?westcoast2https://www.blogger.com/profile/13832425628846431149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-38361870681443180402012-03-30T17:33:26.624+01:002012-03-30T17:33:26.624+01:00"Shame then that Robinsons have fired their l...<i>"Shame then that Robinsons have fired their latest cask marque accredited employee for telling a family that his pub isn't suitable for children. "</i><br /><br />Care to name names?Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-11529245913050114322012-03-30T17:15:30.751+01:002012-03-30T17:15:30.751+01:00As a Joe Public imbiber I associate Cask Marque wi...As a Joe Public imbiber I associate Cask Marque with a publican making an effort who knows how to serve a specific beer type well. That might not be everyone's mark of quality, but it's equally not a mark of Good Beer that denigrates other beer types.<br /><br />Avoid what you want, I'm off for a nice cloudy ginger. Horses for courses.deadmanjoneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17920080723618205512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-44027053231481520972012-03-30T17:14:28.110+01:002012-03-30T17:14:28.110+01:00I guess the point of the motion is that it must be...I guess the point of the motion is that it must be pretty annoying to set out to brew a particular beer that tastes and looks a certain way; which tastes good to you, the brewer, and perhaps also to your tasting panel; and perhaps even to the SIBA judges; but which is then marked down because it looks how you intended it to on the basis of a set of over-rigid rules.<br /><br />I haven't heard anyone say "I only like cloudy beer"; "clear beer is all crap" or anything as simple-minded as that.<br /><br />As for drinking with your eyes, well, haze/cloudiness just doesn't look bad to me. It doesn't put me off. It can look quite appetizing in the right beer. I guess I was lucky not to live through the years when cloudy beer meant bad beer and upset your tum but, for whatever reason, I don't have make that association.<br /><br />This is another one where we should let the market decide. If people like unfined beer, it'll sell. If they don't... it'll go away.Baileyhttp://boakandbailey.comnoreply@blogger.com