tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post818392336928816138..comments2024-03-29T08:01:51.705+00:00Comments on The Pub Curmudgeon: Limelight and shadowCurmudgeonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-76316580407078551962015-09-11T08:44:57.312+01:002015-09-11T08:44:57.312+01:00Martin, I loved my first pint or two of Master Bre...Martin, I loved my first pint or two of Master Brew. It was quenching. And then suddenly it struck me how *empty* it is. It just lacks too much.<br /><br />I'm overdue for a revisit of Holt's, Hyde's, and Robinsons, as it's been a few years, and I've discovered a few traditional SE beers in the interim, both from traditional and new breweries. Sadly, no feasible plans to visit Manchester & Stockport in the foreseeable future.Erlangernickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09564871714656285737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-40463063678292573452015-09-10T20:51:14.903+01:002015-09-10T20:51:14.903+01:00Don't understand lack of love for Sheps; had s...Don't understand lack of love for Sheps; had some great Master Brew in several Faversham pubs and Thanet over the years. Very different beer to Harvey's but with own merits. Suspect quite a few Sheps pubs not in Beer Guide have low real ale turnover compared to Harvey's.Martin, Cambridgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-56881661518955662532015-09-10T08:16:14.334+01:002015-09-10T08:16:14.334+01:00Even someone like me, a foreign beer tourist who&#...Even someone like me, a foreign beer tourist who's spent only a total of a few months in England, can attest to how crappy Arkell's is. We stayed a few nights in an inn of theirs near Oxford a few years ago...barely drinkable.<br /><br />As someone who's spent considerable time this past year in Shepherd Neame country, and who is hoping to actually move there, I have to wonder about them. Yes, I've had a couple of their bottled beers be genuinely good. And a seasonal (summer) beer of theirs was drinkable on cask last month. But otherwise, it seems to me, as good as Harvey's is at being the "classic (light?) brown bitter", so execrable is Master Brew at it.<br /><br />But what a treasure of pubs, restaurants, and hotels they have. Pity about the beer. Such potential.Erlangernickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09564871714656285737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-2544908990375177082015-09-09T20:45:10.521+01:002015-09-09T20:45:10.521+01:00Apart from a few exceptions, I managed to get roun...Apart from a few exceptions, I managed to get round nearly all the breweries in CAMRA’s 1974 Good Beer Guide. Some of the beers were sampled at beer festivals, but in most cases it was necessary to travel to the location where the brewery was situated in order to drink the beers. This, of course, was part of the fun, back in the early days of CAMRA.<br /><br />Looking back at that ground-breaking publication, it’s a real eye-opener to see how many of these firms have disappeared over the last 40 years. As several of your correspondents point out, some aren’t exactly missed. However, many were wonderful old traditional Victorian breweries, and in the right hands, combined with a little investment, they could have turned out some half decent beer. The tragedy is many of these delightful old buildings have been razed to the ground.<br /><br />Breweries whose beers I particularly miss include Eldridge Pope, Morrell’s, Rayments, Ridleys, Simpkiss and Yates & Jackson. The breweries whose beers I never got to sample were Burts, Castletown, Cooks (available only through their own off-licences), Hull, Melbourn and Workington.<br />Paul Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09678639237696546268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-49848880112265142052015-09-09T18:24:39.988+01:002015-09-09T18:24:39.988+01:00@Ben - Harveys is an excellent beer, but maybe not...@Ben - Harveys is an excellent beer, but maybe not the supreme example it is often portrayed as<br /><br />Bathams, on the other hand, is actually the nectar of the godsCurmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-56866166729298932322015-09-09T16:06:59.260+01:002015-09-09T16:06:59.260+01:00Just let me know if you want someone to say bad th...Just let me know if you want someone to say bad things about Harveys.<br /><br />I generally find their beers incredibly dull and unadventurous, with a biscuitty malt character that I dislike, and I can't stand the faux-wooden pumpclip for their best that looks like something from the 70s.Ben Viveurhttp://www.benviveur.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-28618815562279609022015-09-09T08:50:52.268+01:002015-09-09T08:50:52.268+01:00Interesting how people's views differ. I adore...Interesting how people's views differ. I adore Bathams and have drunk Wadworth for 45 years and still love it. We still have our working drayhorses in town too although I was very disappointed they have phased out wood now that the cooper has moved back to Yorkshire.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-88395736704444787602015-09-09T08:06:53.694+01:002015-09-09T08:06:53.694+01:00I joined CAMRA in 1976 in a Ridley's tied hous...I joined CAMRA in 1976 in a Ridley's tied house. Their bitter was excellent, but the mild was bitter with added caramel. Greene King was the other local beer and was quite good then, the IPA tasted nothing like it does today. I think a yeast problem around 78 or 79 started a downward trend. I remember Tolly Cobbold - I only used their pubs in winter when you could get Old Strong - the bitters were poor. Adnams beer was fantastic in and around Southwold but it really didn't travel well. And who remembers Paine's of St Neots? Their beers were OK if inconsistent at times. I also remember an early Beer Festival in Chelmsford (1980?) where they advertised they had beer from Wadworths. When I arrived the 6X had sold out already, the IPA sold out whilst I was in the (long) queue so I had to have something called PA (a boys' bitter). How times have changed, I can't stand Wadworth's beers now. An no-one has mentioned Eldridge Pope, their beers were always good, decent range, available in London when I lived there and a sad day when they closed.Nick Boleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-23924102189963222822015-09-08T20:11:43.084+01:002015-09-08T20:11:43.084+01:00Can't believe Arkells are still in business......Can't believe Arkells are still in business....has always been a dreadful pint and I assumed it kept going because the locals in Swindon had never ventured far afield and tasted anything that resembled decent beer....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-83517546479242652692015-09-08T19:09:57.378+01:002015-09-08T19:09:57.378+01:00I had a bad experience with Tolly Cobbold. Years ...I had a bad experience with Tolly Cobbold. Years ago I went to Ipswich Beer Festival and had a few beers around town. The GBG told me one pub was the only one in town to sell Tolly Cobbold on gravity (and I'm guessing that's why it was in the GBG...). So I roll up and am told by the (quite old) licensee that while the brewery people tell him to cool the beer he believes it should be sold at room temperature whatever the weather. It was rather warm at the time. I don't need to tell you what the beer was like...John Clarkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00132845616834779091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-10717508293847986232015-09-08T16:02:15.135+01:002015-09-08T16:02:15.135+01:00I don't think Tolly Cobbold was much mourned e...I don't think Tolly Cobbold was much mourned either.<br /><br />However, as with pub closures, even a poor brewery has room for improvement, a closed one is gone for ever.<br /><br />And Greenalls' Wem brewery was certainly much missed.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-10147685596125196142015-09-08T15:48:45.669+01:002015-09-08T15:48:45.669+01:00Breweries I wasn't sorry to say goodbye to inc...Breweries I wasn't sorry to say goodbye to include Greenall Whitley, Matthew Brown, and Tetleys. Tetleys used to be reasonable, even in its Warrington form (I always thought the superiority of Leeds Tetley was overstated), but when the Warrington brewery closed down and all production came from Leeds, I thought the beer became considerably worse than either of the two previous versions.Neville Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10923209266005338452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-43106887061138423552015-09-08T15:31:15.434+01:002015-09-08T15:31:15.434+01:00McMullens beers are resolutely old fashioned (alth...McMullens beers are resolutely old fashioned (although none the worse for that) and lack a firm sense of identity - in particular AK which can't decide whether it's a mild or bitter. They often do well at local festivals, which again suggests it's the breather issue that accounts for their poor showing in the GBG.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-64026040014249295352015-09-08T15:21:26.029+01:002015-09-08T15:21:26.029+01:00@electricpics - Vaux acquired a number of pubs aro...@electricpics - Vaux acquired a number of pubs around here in the late 80s and early 90s, and I always thought their beer was reasonable although not one you would go out of your way to drink. And their subsidiary Wards of Sheffield produced an excellent and truly distinctive bitter.<br /><br />@Ian - I understand that the Yorkshire branches took a collective decision not to include any Sam Smith's pubs because of uncertainty over the cask breather issue. The Boar's Head in Stockport, which is in the 2016 GBG, certainly doesn't use cask breathers as we have been down in the cellar to check. I tend to think "don't ask, don't tell" is the best approach on this - I'm sure there are hundreds of pubs in the GBG that do use cask breathers on some or all of their beers.<br /><br />Hydes seem to be doing fine at present, and their Beer Studio range of small-batch specials has been very well received. They have also recently invested a lot of money in refurbishments and new pub acquisitions.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-840364148237674992015-09-08T15:04:48.168+01:002015-09-08T15:04:48.168+01:00I think 'Mudge' mentioned that some branch...I think 'Mudge' mentioned that some branches were not including pubs with cask breathers and if these are used across much of a brewery's estate then it wouldn't have much GBG recognition. I remember that when Hydes closed their brewery you had a post calculating average cask sales per pub on the basis of the capacity of the replacement micro kit and it was a surprisingly small figure, which makes me wonder for how long the company will stay in brewing (without cask breathers).<br /><br />Poor beer quality from a regional has sometimes preceded closure with an example local to me being Youngs. It might be that people at the brewery know or sense what is likely to happen and lose interest. I tend to think that there are two main reasons for closure although these are probably interlinked; one is that the shareholdings have become widely spread around a family leaving few holders with any real interest beyond their dividends and the other is that when capital expenditure is needed (possibly to restore quality) they are unwilling to put up the money. Beards is a case in point since I understand that when Mr. Beard died in 1958 the brewery was quite run down and his heirs were unwilling to invest (economic conditions can't have been all that great) but were happy to keep the estate, so a supply deal with Harveys made sense. A quick look round some local history sources on the internet suggests that the deal may have saved Harveys given the extra volume that it brought.<br /><br />Beer writers don't seem to look much at beers not available in London or other places that are easy to reach. But in any case, an article headed "Batham's Bitter as good as it was in 1980" probably won't get much editorial attention nowadays.Ian Wordennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-90121466752161129282015-09-08T12:09:25.120+01:002015-09-08T12:09:25.120+01:00I've been drinking real ale since 1970. I reme...I've been drinking real ale since 1970. I remember the hard battle we had to keep it going in the early 70's. Certain brewers like Youngs and Wadworth always kept the flag flying and Camra were happy to support them. However recent Camra Good Beer Guides have been a farce. As an example I quote Devizes where I live. There are a good number of Wadworth pubs in the town and the beer is consistently excellent in them. However in the 2015 Guide not one Wadworth pub in Devizes featured. A similar position is shown when you look for a Sam Smith pub in the Yorkshire section. The local Devizes branch fell over themselves to put a so called micro pub in the Guide which only serves very second rate so called 'craft beers'. This is the same Camra which made no effort to demand the option of a smoking room in pubs when the 2007 Smoking Ban came in and which resulted in a huge number of pubs closing.Timothy Goodacrenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-1361573445436329022015-09-08T11:31:43.791+01:002015-09-08T11:31:43.791+01:00'Probably the only one where beer lovers genui...'Probably the only one where beer lovers genuinely muttered “good riddance” was Gibbs Mew of Salisbury whose beer was notoriously dull'<br /><br />I nominate Vaux as the real 'Good riddance' brewery - Gibbs Mew was excellent by comparison.electricpicsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-64228543423300667682015-09-08T10:31:00.515+01:002015-09-08T10:31:00.515+01:00I remember we had Donnington Mild on sale at the f...I remember we had Donnington Mild on sale at the first ever Stockport Beer Festival and people formed a queue to drink it. Tried more than a few years later at a Worcester Beer Fest and it was pretty drab and uninspiring stuff.<br /><br />I tried their new Gold the other week in the Midland in Stockport. Not one for the hopheads but certainly the sort of beer you'd happily drink all night if the need arose.John Clarkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00132845616834779091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-15852291964683328522015-09-08T09:25:20.780+01:002015-09-08T09:25:20.780+01:00I had Donnington Best Bitter in the Falkland Arms ...I had Donnington Best Bitter in the Falkland Arms in Great Tew in the early 90's and still think of it as one of the best pints I've ever drunk, although I suspect if I tried it again it might not quite live up to the memory.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09310220100267028274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-38271093408299900222015-09-08T00:03:51.853+01:002015-09-08T00:03:51.853+01:00Shipstones did have something of a reputation, tho...Shipstones did have something of a reputation, though, and its takeover by Greenalls was a long-running source of grievance in CAMRA. In fact they kept the brewery going for a surprisingly long time and it even for a while brewed Wem ales. <br /><br />The anecdote you mention reminds me that their beer used to be known as "straight-through Shippos". <br /><br />Possibly the least-recognised Nottingham brewery was Home, which greatly expanded in the 50s council estates, but was then hit hard by the 80s recession and closure of coal mines. It never went in for anything fancy, and even at the time of the S&N takeover most of its pubs were still serving mild and bitter via electric meters. The Newmarket in Nottingham was a classic Home pub - inter-wars, from the look of it.<br /><br />Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-55349410296431514682015-09-07T23:37:58.315+01:002015-09-07T23:37:58.315+01:00Among the unlamented losses, I'm surprised nob...Among the unlamented losses, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Shipstone's. Last time I was in Nottingham I read a bizarre piece in the local CAMRA mag, in which the author reminisced about his younger days working as a barman in a Shippo's pub. Soon after he started, he was smitten with chronic gut pains; he thought he was developing an ulcer or appendicitis, and was about to go to the doctor when an old hand at the pub let him into a secret. "You know when punters get a round in and offer to get you a half? <i>Don't drink it</i> - just take the money!" He stopped drinking the beer and the pain stopped overnight. Nothing like nostalgia...<br /><br />I have drunk beer from Mitchell's in my time - original home of Lancaster Bomber - but I don't remember a thing about it. But I have got very fond memories of Buckley's, which I was pleased to find were revived by Evan Evans (a newish brewery run by one of the Buckley family). Also Felinfoel - although to be honest it was so hard to find in the part of Wales I used to visit that I may just have been going off image and scarcity value.<br />Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009879034507926661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-3459473866599850002015-09-07T22:49:28.245+01:002015-09-07T22:49:28.245+01:00An excellent article Mudge, and as someone who’s b...An excellent article Mudge, and as someone who’s been drinking for probably a similar amount of time as yourself, and done a fair bit of travelling round the country, there is much here I can empathise with.<br /><br />It’s rather late in the evening now, so I will come back in greater depth probably tomorrow; but I would agree that in our rush to embrace the new and the different, we often fail to appreciate the gems which lie at our feet. Good solid, family-owned breweries; often with a tradition going back many years. <br /><br />Harvey’s are obviously one of the jewels here, but I know what you mean about them being overshadowed by King & Barnes, back in the early 1980’s. Donnington having a website though; now that is a turn up for the books!<br />Paul Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09678639237696546268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-66534411535735304822015-09-07T22:20:02.948+01:002015-09-07T22:20:02.948+01:00I'm thrilled to be calling in at the Timothy T...I'm thrilled to be calling in at the Timothy Taylor's brewery tap the Boltmakers Arms in Keighley in a few days and as I walk through the Dales we'll inevitably talk about the joy of a pint of TT Best at the Falcon at Arncliffe. However I tend to avoid Landlord down south. Sad how a beer gets a poor reputation as it spreads across the country. Re-Harveys even when I've bought a polypin of Best to be delivered 100 miles away it's been excellent.Ian Thurmanhttp://thewickingman.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-27674106633530142492015-09-07T19:48:11.313+01:002015-09-07T19:48:11.313+01:00Most of those breweries you mention did produce a ...Most of those breweries you mention did produce a decent drop of beer - apart from Gibbs Mew which was pretty grim. When the brewery closed there was a letter in What's Brewing saying feelings were running high in Salisbury, Rhys (again!) memorably suggested that must have meant they were having street parties.John Clarkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00132845616834779091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-24083001005086419592015-09-07T19:26:16.187+01:002015-09-07T19:26:16.187+01:00I've been walking the Ridgeway and every pub i...I've been walking the Ridgeway and every pub in Wiltshire seemed to sell Arkells Beer. I never had a good pint - it was invariably cloudy and didn't taste that good. I was genuinely interested in whether I had just struck unlucky or whether it was garbage beer. I never did find the answer, but the beer along the Ridgeway improved after Goring.<br /><br />Palmers was a total revelation. Found a pint in a pub in Glastonbury that is (I believe) their only distribution outlet outside Dorset. Found myself holidaying in Dorset later this year and every pub seemed to be a Palmers pub. Their 500 is superb - that good that I popped into their brewery in Bridport and exported a crate back to the Midlands.<br /><br />Everards - I have only seen in one place - in the Jewellery Quarter in BRM - really enjoyed that. Just don't get to Leicestershire that often.<br /><br />Donnington - don't really care about the quality of the beer but they have created a "long distance path" - The Donnington Way, which I see when walking the Cotswolds. This is very definitely on my to-do list for next year.Mappimanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10926760353400597496noreply@blogger.com