tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post8606759247765670861..comments2024-03-28T17:11:52.333+00:00Comments on The Pub Curmudgeon: Nature or nurture?Curmudgeonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-13975967242739435362010-03-19T07:14:21.783+00:002010-03-19T07:14:21.783+00:00"Different beers require different cellaring...."Different beers require different cellaring. Simple as that."<br /><br />Amen to that.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-17995989575315058102010-03-18T22:31:12.678+00:002010-03-18T22:31:12.678+00:00I see you saved your ass Brown. Any body that know...I see you saved your ass Brown. Any body that knows anything about brewing will tell you there there are just too many variables for someone to say that "cask beer isn't at its best when it has just dropped bright." Gravity, yeast type, etc., all play a role. Taking the theory "cask beer isn't at its best when it has just dropped bright," when will it become at its best?? Another day, two, maybe in another week?? What starting gravity are we talking about??? Anyone who thinks that excessive cellaring of a 3.5% Bitter is just plain ignorant.Ghost of Wurstnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-60378431150211944632010-03-18T21:31:14.202+00:002010-03-18T21:31:14.202+00:00Oh, and on a technical point - Red Nev is right.
...Oh, and on a technical point - Red Nev is right.<br /><br />When I wrote the Cask Report last year, I did a section on cellaring. I based it on what I learned on a cellarmanship course wit a very successful regional brewer. Before it went to print, it was rewritten by three different brewers in succession, each of whom thought I'd got it wrong because I'm not a brewer, unaware that another brewer had written it. <br /><br />Different beers require different cellaring. Simple as that.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03011702209832734676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-32945144793369475222010-03-18T21:25:50.395+00:002010-03-18T21:25:50.395+00:00Spot on, Curmudgeon, on tall poppy syndrome. See ...Spot on, Curmudgeon, on tall poppy syndrome. See my blog about Marston's FastCask this week. Most people agree that if it doesn't affect the flavour, it's probably a good thing. Some people rightly point out that yeast settling is no the only factor in good cellaring. A minority argue that if it comes from Marston's then it must by definition be shit. <br /><br />I wish some of these people could just see themselves from an external perspective. I pray to a God I don't believe in that I never sounded so much of an arse when I was bemoaning indie bands in the eighties for selling out.<br /><br />Whorst - I'm sorry mate, I've tried, but I just don't get the joke. Your online beery persona is clearly taking the piss out of someone or something, but it's gone over my head - or perhaps under my arse. Am I being thick here? If you're trying to be a wind-up merchant, you're making a very poor job of it. Just give up and read Cookie instead, who is doing an infinitely better version of the same job, in that he hits home with valid criticism, is extremely funny, and demonstrates some intelligence and understanding rather than merely desperately 'edgy' nihilism. You do none of these things. Please - put your cock away and shut up.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03011702209832734676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-2345750486976808722010-03-18T21:21:56.872+00:002010-03-18T21:21:56.872+00:00That might explain why Hydes beers, while pleasant...That might explain why Hydes beers, while pleasant enough, often seem rather "plain vanilla" and lacking depth and complexity (and my local is a Hydes pub, so I have plenty of experience).Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-61659587415726108702010-03-18T16:08:14.696+00:002010-03-18T16:08:14.696+00:00The cut and thrust of debate is one thing ~ person...The cut and thrust of debate is one thing ~ personal abuse is something else altogether. <br /><br />Many years ago I went on a brewery trip to Hydes. Mr Hyde, who was showing us around, said that his beers were at peak condition as soon as they had cleared in the pub cellar. At Moorhouse's on Tuesday, on the other hand, our guide said the beers were greatly improved by being left in the pub cellar for a few days to let the flavour fully develop.<br /><br />So, no consensus among experienced brewers either.Neville Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10923209266005338452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-17448961901928892992010-03-18T12:52:16.526+00:002010-03-18T12:52:16.526+00:00Greene King is very drinkable especially when conf...Greene King is very drinkable especially when confronted by rows of lager taps. I am not a great fan of Tetleys, Pedigree and John Smiths type beers, but much prefer the ABV beers of 4.5-5.0 such as Abbott, Fullers ESB, Wadsworth, Bombadier and Bishops Finger.<br /><br />I passed by my way home and popped into the local..er..whisper... Whetherspoons and the guest ale was an absolute beauty. Arkells Kingsdown with an ABV of 5.0. Dark, strong and bursting with hops, it is the best new beer I have tasted in ages.<br /><br />Just to be contrarian I do also like wine too. I got the taste from using the tube in London. After downing my 5 pints I caught the tube. It got stuck in a tunnel for 30 minutes and I had a very uncomfortable time. So wine reduces the volume of course.DaveAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07249090980650806030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-17123677174239433392010-03-18T08:15:13.185+00:002010-03-18T08:15:13.185+00:00I have deleted the offending post - as it says, ad...I have deleted the offending post - as it says, <i>ad hominem</i> attacks are not welcome.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-88526645267571539542010-03-18T08:12:16.718+00:002010-03-18T08:12:16.718+00:00Good stuff that. I can now stop worrying about the...Good stuff that. I can now stop worrying about the taste of my pint or looking after beer properly. It's clearly a waste of time because a Yank with a strange UK obsession and a Aussie with a chip on his shoulder have cleared up the mystery. <br /><br />Well I'm glad that's sorted. Thanks Lads.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-71990892127614772782010-03-18T02:29:35.856+00:002010-03-18T02:29:35.856+00:00Grow a pair
Bit rich coming from an Anon. who is t...<i>Grow a pair</i><br />Bit rich coming from an Anon. who is too scared to even use their real name.<br /><br />Being racist, and calling me a kiddie fiddler hardly make you an expert on beer. I was only commenting on the theme of the thread with my knowledge from discussions with a couple of landlords and brewers. <br /><br />Too many weirdo's in this beer blogging business. No wonder I gave up on it.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02316570387878262483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-81128926393848785402010-03-17T21:25:55.631+00:002010-03-17T21:25:55.631+00:00Tandleman et al, the maturation of cask ale after ...Tandleman <i>et al</i>, the maturation of cask ale after it has dropped bright is utter rubbish for about 90% of cask production. The larger (relatively) regional brewers all precondition, fine or filter their beers before even racking them to cask. The beer is delivered and only needs to spend a couple of hours in a pubs cellar before it is right to sell.<br /><br />I have chatted about this with Jeff (aka Stonch) on a few occasions and he claims that Landlord is an exception as are a few of the micro's who rack when the beer reaches a gravity around 1020.<br /><br />Sure in the CAMRA ideologists world all beer is racked to cask at 1020 and requires lengthy conditioning once it reaches the cellar, but in the real world this is the exception and not the rule.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02316570387878262483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-27592483956908548702010-03-17T21:25:26.413+00:002010-03-17T21:25:26.413+00:00Had a couple of great pints of Tetley's recent...Had a couple of great pints of Tetley's recently, in remote pubs in Northumberland of all places. Definitely down to cellarmanship.ChrisMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09088526990457894540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-40940618410221823492010-03-17T21:07:24.100+00:002010-03-17T21:07:24.100+00:00Cellarmanship is vital. Try a pint of a Thornbridg...Cellarmanship is vital. Try a pint of a Thornbridge beer in a decent pub and it can be fantastic. The same pint in a certain sports bar in Sheffield ain't half as good and gets ruggedly pulled with little care.<br /><br />Your examples of beers that are often dismissed intrigues me. Personally I don't like Deuchars and I know few people that do (bland, although maybe I've never had a really well kept pint of it?!) but Landlord and Pedigree are revered and sought out. Landlord is certainly a tall poppy! Granted it might not get the column inches but that's the 'new wave' does but then again you don't see Timmy Taylor's pulling PR stunts.<br /><br />Cookie: I must have said a thousand times I don't buy Tetley bitter often, usually only if in certain pubs pre-match on a Saturday where it's the only cask. Even then I'll often opt for whatever nice lout there is because the Tetley's is treated with contempt by most of the bar staff in these places. I'd still prefer it to be brewed in Yorkshire though, for carbon footprint reasons almost as much as heritage etc.Mark, Real-Ale-Reviews.comhttp://real-ale-reviews.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-38099107067794008442010-03-17T20:29:30.971+00:002010-03-17T20:29:30.971+00:00Absolute bullshit! I disagree adamantly with both ...Absolute bullshit! I disagree adamantly with both of you. An ordinary Bitter can spend four days in the fermenter and be ready to drink at its peak of flavor in a very short period after, without being immature, green, or whatever the fuck you call it. You're something else. In the end, you've won, because this is the kind of shit that I can do without. I spent an hour on the phone this morning speaking to three brewers in the UK who shall remain nameless. They have requested that I do not use their names in referring to this post. One of them actually reads beer blogs because he finds them amusing. Go figure! Two of them have mentioned that YOU, Tandleman are FULL OF SHIT! Which is good enough for me. So good, that I'm done. Sooner or later someone else will call you on your bullshit, or maybe they already have.Whorsthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01784943453195129865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-30387355303987134392010-03-17T19:50:44.264+00:002010-03-17T19:50:44.264+00:00Now then Sausage. The other name for cask conditio...Now then Sausage. The other name for cask conditioned beer is cask matured beer. Matured! Geddit?<br /><br />I don't pull you up on home brew - don't you pull me up on cellarmanship.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-73934897217195143882010-03-17T18:45:33.875+00:002010-03-17T18:45:33.875+00:00Whorst, I'm afraid it's you that is showin...Whorst, I'm afraid it's you that is showing your ignorance. It is not subjective to say that cask beer still needs to mature after it has dropped bright before it reaches its peak of flavour, as anyone who has had any experience with it will tell you. Tandleman is absolutely right,Martyn Cornellhttp://zythophile.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-91611878437630098042010-03-17T15:35:14.327+00:002010-03-17T15:35:14.327+00:00Tandleman, you again are making cask conditioned b...Tandleman, you again are making cask conditioned beer sound like brain surgery, it isn't. There is no science behind ANY of your comments. They are your opinion, which is subjective. Cask ale fails from not selling and losing condition, which are both intermingled. The stuff you come up with is in your head. Define the flavor profile of immature beer. Also, explain how bright, naturally carbonated beer is immature.Whorsthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01784943453195129865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-2671424017244067542010-03-17T15:11:28.280+00:002010-03-17T15:11:28.280+00:00Excellent points rarely recognised in local CAMRA ...Excellent points rarely recognised in local CAMRA circles, where a line-up of Deuchars/Pride/Adnams is routinely written off as bland.<br /><br />The ubiquitous Pedigree seems to have suffered the most though. Ouside it's Midlands heartland it is often a shadow of the classic beer it can still be (particularly when from the barrel). It's often the worst choice in a Wetherspoons.<br /><br />And yes Curmudgeon, the local Manchester beer do indeed seem highly variable to an outsider. I had a fantastic pint of Holts near London Bridge recently, but generally struggle with it. The variability in Robbies is highlighted in the views from the Stockport Stagger reports (including your own).Martin, Cambridgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-75758779717840460782010-03-17T15:10:48.577+00:002010-03-17T15:10:48.577+00:00RedNev,
Quite. Properly kept John Smith's can...RedNev,<br /><br />Quite. Properly kept John Smith's can be quite good. I even had a nice pint of Boddingtons once (only once, though).Brian, follower of Deornothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11941277617617928470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-25216542016996532412010-03-17T14:13:06.508+00:002010-03-17T14:13:06.508+00:00I couldn't agree more about cellarmanship and ...I couldn't agree more about cellarmanship and tall poppy syndrome. For years, I knew which was the best pint I'd ever had: Thwaites Bitter, beautifully kept and at an ideal temperature with a fine, creamy head. Not much of a fashion beer but it was truly memorable due in large part to the landlord's skill.NAMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13247378318975737305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-35039486578230362522010-03-17T14:05:23.398+00:002010-03-17T14:05:23.398+00:00I find John Smith's cask bitter a perfectly ac...I find John Smith's cask bitter a perfectly acceptable beer, albeit one at the rich, malty, caramelly end of the spectrum. Perhaps it suffers from the association with Extra Smooth.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-62542680837437149522010-03-17T13:46:44.077+00:002010-03-17T13:46:44.077+00:00Last summer I worked on a real ale bar at a charit...Last summer I worked on a real ale bar at a charity event in Southport. On gravity dispense were 3 donated bitters: Tetley's, John Smith's and Black Sheep. After the Black Sheep ran out, I poured myself the John Smith's with little enthusiasm but found found to my surprise it had far more flavour than I'd expected. Not wonderful, but unexpectedly acceptable. And this was John Smith's!Neville Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10923209266005338452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-89288830179310760702010-03-17T13:42:18.605+00:002010-03-17T13:42:18.605+00:00I think you're absolutely right about the tall...I think you're absolutely right about the tall poppy syndrome but I think its a characteristic of many hobbies that are seen as a way of differentiating yourself from the mainstream - you can witness the same syndrome in music circles when favourite indie bands are seen as "selling out " when they take the major's shilling and start selling millions and touring the stadia. <br /><br />Thus its always about the new and the rare, the pink vinyl import or limited edition pineapple stout and so real ales that sell the most are often dismissed as boring brown beers despite the fact that millions drink and enjoy them, the national/regional brewers and their products are often avoided/damned with faint praise in favour of anything from a micro-brewery however bland and even undrinkabale some of their output can be, and of course that rare American Quadruple IPA (or whatever the latest favourite is) is always better than anything we could produce in the UK (and of course it operates in reverse, witness the Amnercian predeliction for raving about Newcastle Brown, Bass and Sam Smith's beers)...and so on. <br /><br />But at the end of the day the "beer enthusiast" (and I'm one myself !) is a tiny, tiny proportion of the market compared to the "beer drinker" and they're not doing anyone any harm so let them enjoy their hobby within our little bubble (I doubt Marstons, Greene King, Youngs or Fullers really give a monkeys what a few beer geeks think about the most popular pints of real ale in the UK - and as Mr Cooking Lager would no doubt remind us, the big international lager brewers don't care about real ale drinkers full stop !)<br /><br />As you say, it will be interesting to see in years to come when Brew Dog are in every supermnarket and corner shop, when you can't walk into a pub without seeing Thornbridge Jaipur alongside London Pride, whether the enthusiasts will be paying them any attention any more. I remember when Deuchars first started to slip into a few London pubs and the thrill of finding it on the bar, now its dismissed as boring, and now the same thing is happening to Sharps and St Austell beers as they become more popular and ubiquitous, I wonder who'll be next to earn the "boring2 tag....? <br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /> tends to be the <br /><br /><br /> I guess its the nature of the beast in terms of the comparativelyReading Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-72283191290689048512010-03-17T13:18:45.144+00:002010-03-17T13:18:45.144+00:00ditto what Tandleman said.
It'll be interesti...ditto what Tandleman said. <br />It'll be interesting to see what this 'new' Marston's process brings forth.Paul Garrardhttp://www.realaleblog.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-35474700680341189472010-03-17T12:55:32.509+00:002010-03-17T12:55:32.509+00:00Cellarmanship is key to cask beer. It really makes...Cellarmanship is key to cask beer. It really makes the difference when someone knows what they are doing. One often overlooked point is that cask beer isn't at its best when it has just dropped bright. To buy in front to allow more conditioning takes money a lot of publicans just don't have, which often results in green, underconditioned, immature and downright flabby beer being sold.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.com