tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post8700300826294039109..comments2024-03-25T18:49:00.608+00:00Comments on The Pub Curmudgeon: The world turned upside downCurmudgeonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-59655422611284272172013-04-17T22:33:43.592+01:002013-04-17T22:33:43.592+01:00Not really familiar enough with them to comment on...Not really familiar enough with them to comment on that. Subjectively, I'd say there was a slight difference, with the clientele in the long-established real pubs being a bit older, more traditional working class, that in the keg pubs a bit younger, more scally, but that may be bollocks. Robbies' have of course got rid of a lot of the bottom end of their estate in the past few years.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-89752751588617550982013-04-17T21:59:22.944+01:002013-04-17T21:59:22.944+01:00Are the pubs in Levenshulme and Reddish (largely k...Are the pubs in Levenshulme and Reddish (largely keg) much different in customer to the Holts pubs in Swinton and Pendlebury (mostly real, although lager is biggest seller) ?. As noted, class, whatever that is, doesn't explain the differences alone.<br />Martin, Cambridgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-67987882440718391092013-04-17T20:42:12.620+01:002013-04-17T20:42:12.620+01:00God, Ye Olde Custom House, I'd forgotten about...God, Ye Olde Custom House, I'd forgotten about that place. Decent pub in its day.<br />Couldn't say how much of the former Border estate is closed now. I can think of quite a few pubs in Wrexham town centre which have gone; The Horns, The Castle, The Red Cow among others but these went back in the 90s before the smoking ban etc. Most are still going but I couldn't say how many outside the town are still on the go. <br />You're quite right to say that Border were taking real ale out of pubs when other breweries were putting it back in. I remember a lovely old pub called The Old Swan in Wrexham which had a bank of four hand pumps but all you could get was keg! (We used to go there anyway for the cheap pool table and juke box) Went back there recently and it's been completely transformed into some sort of style bar. With real ale though.<br />Best pub in Wrexham now is The Royal Oak, AKA The Embassy, on the High Street which is now run by the utterly wonderful Joules.Billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-74987943103582613302013-04-17T19:06:37.614+01:002013-04-17T19:06:37.614+01:00@Bill, by concidence, Pubs then and Now today feat...@Bill, by concidence, <i>Pubs then and Now</i> today featured <a href="http://pubsthenandnow.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/110-ye-olde-custom-house-inn-chester.html" rel="nofollow">Ye Olde Custom House</a>, Border's outpost in Chester, which I used to visit with friends thirty or more years ago. <br /><br />Border were guilty of taking real ale out of pubs just as other brewers were putting it back in. I'd bet half their estate at the time of the Marston's takeover is now closed.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-68940478590215933132013-04-17T18:22:49.300+01:002013-04-17T18:22:49.300+01:00I started using pubs in the late 1970s in my home ...I started using pubs in the late 1970s in my home town of Wrexham, which at that time housed the Border Brewery, a fairly major regional player with a tied estate across North Wales and into Cheshire and Shropshire. At that time it owned upwards of 75% of the pubs in Wrexham, the rest being owned by Bass, Ansells, Burtonwood and one by J W Lees. You could count the number of Border pubs that sold real ale on the fingers of one hand. My mates and I used to make a special trip to the Nag's Head which was effectively the brewery tap, where the beer was excellent. Otherwise, you were better off in the Bass pubs, most of which sold real ale. I don't recall there being any kind of class divide but maybe that's because there weren't many posh pubs. (Not a posh town, Wrexham)<br />Border was eventually taken over by Marston's who promised to keep the brewery open and then promptly closed it down. However, they did put real ale into all the former Border pubs and now there are very few pubs there which don't offer it.<br />I now live in Bristol (the Soft South) and apart from clubs and a few youth and sport oriented bars, I can't think of many pubs with no real ale. However, this may be because a lot of the 50s and 60s estate pubs in less well-off areas have closed. We do however have a brand new BrewDog bar in the centre of town offering insane beers at insane prices. There's no bugger in there.Billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-75506010935730435922013-04-17T14:56:36.048+01:002013-04-17T14:56:36.048+01:00I started drinking in the 70s in Scotland and most...I started drinking in the 70s in Scotland and most of us drank ale. McEwan's Export or Tartan Special and in my case, when I could, Diamond Heavy from Alloa. <br /><br />We'd drink lager too sometimes, but I bet then it was about 50/50 overall. We were around 18 then.<br /><br />Good piece this Mudgie and good comments too.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-78657966270478160052013-04-17T14:20:53.696+01:002013-04-17T14:20:53.696+01:00Moving it back then, would the generation that sta...Moving it back then, would the generation that started drinking in the late 70's be the first generation that were unaware of and had not been subject to the 60's advertising of lager as a lighter woman's drink?Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-85563096325053694272013-04-17T14:12:10.125+01:002013-04-17T14:12:10.125+01:00@Bailey - good point, and helps explain why it was...@Bailey - good point, and helps explain why it was such a culture shock.<br /><br />On the other hand, the traditional Northern prejudice against "Southern beer" was not that it was fizzy, but that it was flat and lacked a decent head.<br /><br />This wasn't really intended to be a post about class - it's more how the unthinking default option for pubs and drinkers has moved from cask to keg and cooking lager.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-53055888941063057092013-04-17T13:47:29.919+01:002013-04-17T13:47:29.919+01:00Christopher Hutt suggested to us that the North We...Christopher Hutt suggested to us that the North West was out of step in the sixties and seventies. His shock at discovering how bad beer was in the East/South East when he went to university, having grown up with cask ale as the norm, echoed the experience of Michael Hardman and Graham Lees on moving to London/St Albans. The contrast, he reckons, is what prompted the founding of CAMRA, the writing of his book, and explains why CAMRA's first four chairs were from the North West.Baileyhttp://boakandbailey.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-62685576054104019232013-04-17T13:35:46.753+01:002013-04-17T13:35:46.753+01:00"Demographics meant no market for cask ale on...<i>"Demographics meant no market for cask ale on estate pubs, not nasty pubcos"</i><br /><br />Not entirely - where the family brewers still own estate pubs, they still tend to sell cask ale, and often quite a lot of it.<br /><br />I would also echo Nev in saying that it wasn't until the late 70s at the very earliest that young "ordinary blokes" started to drink lager rather than bitter. Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-14453305608528754942013-04-17T13:31:23.016+01:002013-04-17T13:31:23.016+01:00Martin: my experience doesn't match your state...Martin: my experience doesn't match your statement. I went to college in the 1970s, and most of my friends and I drank bitter, mild, or one of these mixed with a bottle of light or brown ale. Not only that, you'd still often hear the scornful assertion that "lager is a woman's drink".Neville Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10923209266005338452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-23467701066973942712013-04-17T13:26:43.920+01:002013-04-17T13:26:43.920+01:00Craft beer is young middle class, real ale old cod...Craft beer is young middle class, real ale old codger middle class. Wine is middle class too except Asti Spumante which is working class. More than one drink can be middle class or working class. Concerning yourself with flavour is both middle class and slightly effeminate. It is effeminate to be middle class so they are synonymous. Being working class is manly and tough. Even if you’re a lass. Gritting your teeth and getting it down you is working class as is calling someone a posh poof if they don’t. You’re welcome.Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-68194402568100392002013-04-17T13:24:33.293+01:002013-04-17T13:24:33.293+01:00Liverpool city centre is rightly celebrated for it...Liverpool city centre is rightly celebrated for its great pubs, but it is ringed by working class suburbs that are almost entirely cask-free. This wasn't the case as recently as 1990 when there loads of locals serving one or two real ales from the brewery that owned them.<br /><br />The much-mourned Higsons produced great beer, but it was real in less than half of the outlets. When Boddingtons took Higsons over, it put real ale in all the pubs, thus disprovong the Higsons' claim that many of the pub cellars were unsuitable for real ale. Yes, apparently they built pubs unsuitable for real ale a century ago.<br /><br />I'm unsure of the value of trying to link types of drinks with class; there are too many exceptions to any rule you may devise, thus making the exercise pointless.Neville Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10923209266005338452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-9660387151030262132013-04-17T13:20:52.119+01:002013-04-17T13:20:52.119+01:00It constantly needs stressing that the first gener...It constantly needs stressing that the first generation of Camra members were a rarety among young people in their 20s in the 1970s, most of whom were drinking lager. As that generation rose up the age rankings, and was followed by more lager-drinkers, so mild, bitter and cask ale plummeted, and lager boomed. Demographics meant no market for cask ale on estate pubs, not nasty pubcos, who were following the market, not leading it. And I'm sure that's still true today.Martyn Cornellhttp://zythophile.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-75966326384600962722013-04-17T13:05:05.749+01:002013-04-17T13:05:05.749+01:00Whats more middle class then, real ale or craft be...Whats more middle class then, real ale or craft beer?<br /><br />Anyway, I thought wine was middle class and beer was working class? Or is only shit beer that counts as working class nowadays?<br /><br />Perhaps even taking an interest in effeminate concepts like flavour is itself a middle class preoccupation?SLAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02750653266156249490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-29823745109302099962013-04-17T12:52:42.332+01:002013-04-17T12:52:42.332+01:00Real Ale, as beards define it, is very much a midd...Real Ale, as beards define it, is very much a middle class affectation. It ought to come with a warning. "may induce a desire to read the on line guardian"<br /><br />Us prols neck Carling. Are you saying that was not always the case? That back when all this was fields middle class people drank sherry and us prols drank pongy bitter?Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.com