tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post882786021958965807..comments2024-03-28T17:11:52.333+00:00Comments on The Pub Curmudgeon: Some more equal than others?Curmudgeonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-64587459742561166412014-10-25T12:34:11.506+01:002014-10-25T12:34:11.506+01:00That's a great post and a sensitive treatment ...That's a great post and a sensitive treatment of a difficult issue. I think the problem with Lord Freud's comments are that the Conservatives are suspected - with good reason in some cases - of seeking to undermine the entire concept of the minimum wage, and therefore coming from a Tory this rings alarm bells for some.<br /><br />In any case weren't a lot of potmen just paid in kind - i.e. their beer and something to eat?Stonchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07001578598975666535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-2071150255738760162014-10-20T09:15:30.781+01:002014-10-20T09:15:30.781+01:00If you look at bar wages, any question regarding t...If you look at bar wages, any question regarding the minimum wage would be one of does it act like a ceiling or floor. Does it prevent exploitation by enforcing a floor that cannot be fallen through or does it create an unreasonable expectation that you can staff your establishment at that standard piss poor rate?<br /><br />Bar staff add value. However you dress beer up with effective marketing it is a product of commodity ingredients and available cheaply to drink at home. The fact that people are willing to pay 3-6 times the commodity price just to drink it in a bar, with fairly minimal service, suggests the pub adds value to the experience of drinking it.<br /><br />Yet bar staff in Britain is a poorly paid job involving unsocial able hours and often dealing with drunken customers. Why isn’t it better paid? Where are the career waiters like you see in Europe? I can visit a European city and notice the waiter is the same guy that served me when I first went in there over 8 years ago. Most of the boozers around where I live in the UK have staff that have been there less than a year.<br /><br />It may be good that bar work offers an opportunity to people making their first step into the world of work. People in a transition from education to work and from parental dependency to independence. But it’s not a job to be doing 5 years hence. Mudgies rose tinted view of the British Pub in reality lacks one of the things associated with it. The old lady Betty Turpin character that’s buried 6 husbands, cooks a mean hotpot, has no bad language in her pub and worked a bar for 40 years, and knows how to pull a proper pint. The barmaid is 18 years old and earning a bit extra before graduating and chasing a decent job and if she’s still doing it next year she will consider herself a failure.<br />Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-3711695062172286962014-10-18T19:39:52.151+01:002014-10-18T19:39:52.151+01:00It's not the conservatives who will be the cau...It's not the conservatives who will be the cause for concern in the "London" Labour Camp, it's the traditional regional working class voter seeing through the <br />Fabian Bourgoise Elite and their<br />parasitical media luvvies.<br />Lambeth and Bloomsbury chatterers and assorted quango trough dippers.The only reason Labour holds on is by keeping their voters at Pre Victorian levels of<br />intelligence.<br /><br />Ex Shop Steward<br />Bin there and adsum<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-34358205579934848312014-10-18T17:01:04.722+01:002014-10-18T17:01:04.722+01:00The Conservatives must be using your Forum as some...The Conservatives must be using your Forum as some sort of Think Tank. Amazing, absolutely amazing, that such crass thinking is still alive and well in 2014.John Meddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10547777949324509522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-72481192066620730892014-10-17T20:19:03.150+01:002014-10-17T20:19:03.150+01:00With millions queueing up to get into Britain and ...With millions queueing up to get into Britain and work for even less than the minimum wage,what chance of any fair deals in low skilled employment.<br />Lets not forget our lefty,liberal<br />elite ,who would let the flood gates open<br />Anyway we have no shortage of slow learners and half wits inside and outside our remaining pubs allready<br />Non LevellerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-62990295228454144652014-10-17T17:52:45.022+01:002014-10-17T17:52:45.022+01:00@mudgie, yes of course, but human abilities being ...@mudgie, yes of course, but human abilities being a bit of a continuum, like, the "argument" holds at any pay rate. Until there's only one unemployed person left. Silly.StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-50668833673572367382014-10-17T17:47:49.051+01:002014-10-17T17:47:49.051+01:00Yo Stigler! You're short of two "because ...Yo Stigler! You're short of two "because [insert nonsense]" there.StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-35134773462133541422014-10-17T17:21:34.996+01:002014-10-17T17:21:34.996+01:00Stringers,
Yo, Stigler, do you not think hiring e...Stringers,<br /><br /><i>Yo, Stigler, do you not think hiring employers will always discriminate against those with low skills. i.e. isn't it the case that at any hourly rate the employer will choose the better skilled applicant.</i><br /><br />No, because employers will consider the value of the person for the cost. You could hire a heart surgeon as a school nurse. He'd be better at being a school nurse than a regular school nurse. But he'd also cost far more, so wouldn't deliver value.<br /><br /><i>Doesn't Friedman's argument assume that no better skilled applicant will present at any rate less than the minimum wage?</i><br /><br />No.<br /><br /><i>And isn't this patently nonsense?</i><br /><br />No<br />Tim Almondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13369256383976094670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-29871818307022569712014-10-17T17:08:34.187+01:002014-10-17T17:08:34.187+01:00But (a) the rate offered will affect the mix of ap...But (a) the rate offered will affect the mix of applicants. Skilled individuals will not apply for low-paid jobs if there are higher-paid ones available.<br /><br />(b) there will be some people whose abilities are such that they won't add enough value to cover the cost of employing themCurmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-82965915472416444462014-10-17T16:57:19.253+01:002014-10-17T16:57:19.253+01:00Yo, Stigler, do you not think hiring employers wil...Yo, Stigler, do you not think hiring employers will <b>always</b> discriminate against those with low skills. i.e. isn't it the case that at <b>any</b> hourly rate the employer will choose the better skilled applicant. Doesn't Friedman's argument assume that no better skilled applicant will present at any rate less than the minimum wage? And isn't this patently nonsense?StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-46871161612953587342014-10-17T16:05:19.402+01:002014-10-17T16:05:19.402+01:00And as Milton Friedman once said: "The minimu...And as Milton Friedman once said: "The minimum wage law is most properly described as a law saying employers must discriminate against people who have low skills".<br /><br />If you have to pay £7/hour as a minimum, why hire someone with learning difficulties if you can get someone without for the same rate?Tim Almondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13369256383976094670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-18099881120881241722014-10-17T14:10:17.322+01:002014-10-17T14:10:17.322+01:00"Sitting on your arse in front of a computer ...<i>"Sitting on your arse in front of a computer is what most jobs are about these days"</i><br /><br />As I said, fine for people with physical disabilities, not so much for those with substantial learning disabilities.<br /><br /><i>"Rather than ask disabled people to work for less and then topping them up with welfare, subsidise employers willing to offer them work"</i><br /><br />Which is what I said - if government wants it to happen, subsidise the employer, not the individual.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-18473886392559887562014-10-17T14:03:13.165+01:002014-10-17T14:03:13.165+01:00Sounds like a bit of a cunt this Lord Freud. Bet D...Sounds like a bit of a cunt this Lord Freud. Bet Dave wished he’d bugger off to the kippers with the rest of the nutcase wing of his outfit. The thing about the world of work is that it’s changed a lot over the decades. Sitting on your arse in front of a computer is what most jobs are about these days. Many disabled people would be of equal economic output as anyone. Why give crap employers the excuse to pay them less?<br /><br />If there are people whose economic output is less per hour than the minimum wage there is a nicer more dignified approach than paying them less.<br /><br />Didn’t the last labour government subsidise Remploy to provide subsided jobs for disabled people? Lowering the cost of employment whilst maintaining the dignity of disabled people? <br /><br />Sounds a more dignified approach. Rather than ask disabled people to work for less and then topping them up with welfare, subsidise employers willing to offer them work (reducing the per hour cost) and expect them to pay a decent wage. Cost to the taxpayer the same but with a greater degree of dignity to the disabled.<br /><br />And pubs may be piss poor at their social responsibilities in no longer giving pot collecting jobs to the slow lad, but at least the supermarkets are up there doing there bit with plenty of jobs collecting trollies, packing bags and stocking shelves. Though I thought it a bit off last time I was stocking up on cheap lager to see that they didn’t give a team of dwarves some ladders and expected them to balance on each other shoulders to get to the higher shelves<br />Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-77059938860946373072014-10-17T13:56:19.085+01:002014-10-17T13:56:19.085+01:00You could use this as an argument for a basic citi...You could use this as an argument for a <a href="http://www.citizensincome.org/" rel="nofollow">basic citizen's income</a> - but that wouldn't work unless it replaced the minimum wage and the vast majority of welfare.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-17331251931040445902014-10-17T13:48:56.911+01:002014-10-17T13:48:56.911+01:00Or ... our approach to paying people needs to chan...Or ... our approach to paying people needs to change. Living wage let a lone minimum wage. Less money for those at the top and more for those at the bottom. This all comes about as we are trying to wedge people into a broken system. Change the system.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com