tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post8913467814873145423..comments2024-03-28T17:11:52.333+00:00Comments on The Pub Curmudgeon: Decision dayCurmudgeonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-29802027646284012832018-03-22T19:42:30.119+00:002018-03-22T19:42:30.119+00:00Some people would perhaps like it to be a two-way ...Some people would perhaps like it to be a two-way choice? As for lager, well, "Harp. Stay sharp. To the bottom of the glarp". HHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-66547984320415698902018-03-22T16:14:18.997+00:002018-03-22T16:14:18.997+00:00I believe the NE have now arranged for a large red...I believe the NE have now arranged for a large red bus to be stationed outside the University of Warwick next month, the side if which will be emblazoned with "Vote for Revitalisation and save CAMRA £350 million per week - all to be provided to members as Wetherspoons vouchers".Sic1314https://www.blogger.com/profile/13483987336328474503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-52188514059673495612018-03-21T16:32:56.816+00:002018-03-21T16:32:56.816+00:00Rob,
Most of us realise there is no way of reversi...Rob,<br />Most of us realise there is no way of reversing the trend of a decline in active branch members.<br />CAMRA telling youngsters that there’s now nothing wrong with “high-quality” pressurised beers wouldn’t get many of them joining and becoming active, certainly less than those leaving because it was no longer a proper Campaign for Real Ale.<br />There is going to be a time when we must accept that CAMRA has had its day, and that could be very soon. Some might even argue that CAMRA had done what it had to do in its first ten years and some big ‘successes’ since then, such as the Beer Orders and Progressive Beer Duty, have NOT been in the interests of ‘the ordinary drinker’.<br />The fundamental problem with the Revitalisation Project is that it has been all about the future of CAMRA with scarcely a thought about the future of Real Ale. The other Mudgie !noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-55822917140560774272018-03-21T16:02:27.446+00:002018-03-21T16:02:27.446+00:00Again, economy of scale works in national distribu...Again, economy of scale works in national distribution: The bigger the distribution network the lower the cost of distribution per unit of beer so while their overall costs are much higher, they're less of a proportion of the wholesale cost of beer. And there's a point where it becomes more cost-effective to have K&N or DHL TradeTeam ship your containers around the country unless your fleet is of a comparable size, like Marstons. For smaller operators the choice to outsource isn't available because they can't offer the volume to the haulier, and when it boils down to a man in a van delivering a few dozen firkins, the cost to deliver per unit is far higher. Anyway, in any large-scale manufacturing process dumbing down ingredients to save a few pennies always adds up to actually saving hundreds of thousands or millions. Most breweries aren't interested in the retail price as long as they can get their wholesale price competitive to gain market volume, and (with the exception of Sam Smiths) if they have a tied estate they make a retail margin in addition to the wholesale margin so they can't lose.electricpicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09144970068645280352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-42416925448840038012018-03-21T15:15:51.755+00:002018-03-21T15:15:51.755+00:00Large brewers do have the economy of scale but the...Large brewers do have the economy of scale but they also have a higher cost of distribution. And since the cost of manufacture does not much influence either the wholesale or retail price the idea that big brewers are dumbing down their beers to save a few pennies is hard to believe.dcbwhaleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02585310584555592882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-12070373551266199272018-03-21T15:11:16.088+00:002018-03-21T15:11:16.088+00:00Or, more likely, to ageing taste buds :-) :-)
Or, more likely, to ageing taste buds :-) :-)<br />dcbwhaleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02585310584555592882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-49509698415424225002018-03-21T13:44:33.315+00:002018-03-21T13:44:33.315+00:00But something not being what it used to be doesn&#...But something not being what it used to be doesn't mean it's no good. And I'd question that claim about Tribute, given that it's a relatively new beer.<br /><br />Plus the point has been widely made that perceptions of beers having their character dialled down may be a result to them often being given insufficient cellaring time.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-72696395075010315122018-03-21T12:03:11.090+00:002018-03-21T12:03:11.090+00:00All cask ales cost very much the same to make?! Th...All cask ales cost very much the same to make?! The economies of scale work massively in favour of large brewers. Try telling the owners of even a large micro that they can make beer for the same as, say, Marstons and they'll laugh, or cry, and even Small Brewers Duty Relief doesn't entirely make up for the differences.<br /><br />Mudge, all of those beers are inoffensive in that they don't taste of grapefruit or melons or whatever but since they became nationally available every one of them, with the exceptions of Landlord and Abbott, has had flavour dialled out and don't have anything like the character they had. Wainwright excepted because that's always been discreetly flavoured. Nothing wrong at all with any of them but they're just not what they were. electricpicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09144970068645280352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-32612869695714100022018-03-21T07:55:02.569+00:002018-03-21T07:55:02.569+00:00@Rob Nicholson - but you certainly have argued tha...@Rob Nicholson - but you certainly have argued that one justification for Revitalisation is as a means of addressing the decline in activism, whereas I would contend that this is largely due to wider social factors rather than CAMRA's campaigning stance becoming "out-of-date". Realistically, it's probably inevitable that in the coming years it will become more of a top-down organisation rather than one based on local activism. This may make some of its current activities unsustainable.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-16957074904350450752018-03-21T00:56:54.851+00:002018-03-21T00:56:54.851+00:00>Far from it: by narrowing the focus onto quali...>Far from it: by narrowing the focus onto quality real ales and real pubs alone: you are aware that many CAMRA branches are struggling with volunteers to run the branch and without them, that CAMRA collapses in its current form? If you are, I ask the same question as I always ask - why will narrowing focus/back to basics will suddenly reverse this trend? See post above that changing equally isn't a guarantee that this decline will be abated.Rob Nicholsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14871887147718814739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-17476598272869063122018-03-21T00:47:30.597+00:002018-03-21T00:47:30.597+00:00>Even Rob Nicholson seems to have accepted that...>Even Rob Nicholson seems to have accepted that it's not a magic bullet: I think you'll find I've never said it's a magic bullet (although I really mean silver bullet as in killing the werewolf) and has always carried risk of not working & causing a small number of (very vocal) active members to leave - possibly accelerating the demise of the branches - which is going to happen anyway unless we can find the real silver bullet of a new generation of volunteers to keep going for the next 40 years. Although personally I think that all CAMRA really needs is an operational & structural revitalisation - which might also happens when the branches collapse.Rob Nicholsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14871887147718814739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-87100386110233192422018-03-20T22:22:03.972+00:002018-03-20T22:22:03.972+00:00I reiterate. The comparison with bread is deeply ...I reiterate. The comparison with bread is deeply flawed. Chorleywood process bread is cheap to make and it has little taste. But because it is cheap to make it sells at a low price so people on a budget buy it.<br /><br />Beer is not the same. None of those bland beers is made from cheap ingredients in a process that generates enormous margin. All cask ales cost very much the same to make but sell at prices totally unrelated to their production cost for reasons which 'mudge can explain.dcbwhaleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02585310584555592882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-72055004730004627542018-03-20T14:38:49.016+00:002018-03-20T14:38:49.016+00:00If the Revitalisation proposals were accepted CAMR...If the Revitalisation proposals were accepted CAMRA “would play a leading role in the provision of information, education and training to all those with an interest in beer” and I could then just imagine “Anonymous” going round his local pubs proclaiming that Doom Bar is “shit beer” and “bland tasteless dishwasher” but not offering an opinion on the Worthington or John Smiths smoothflow, er, that’s if “Anonymous” is actually a CAMRA member. The other Mudgie !noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-13400125139923475482018-03-20T09:26:28.558+00:002018-03-20T09:26:28.558+00:00So which amongst the Top Ten cask ales are "b...So which amongst the Top Ten cask ales are "bland and inoffensive"? <br /><br />Doom Bar<br />Greene King IPA<br />London Pride<br />Abbot Ale<br />Deuchars IPA<br />Pedigree<br />Wainwright<br />Landlord<br />Tribute<br />Old Speckled Hen<br /><br />And, as I've said many times in the past, the main factor determining price across the bar is the mark-up applied by the individual pub. Few cask beers can really command a price premium against others of similar strength on the next-door pump.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-9254688158644336832018-03-20T08:28:08.796+00:002018-03-20T08:28:08.796+00:00David C Brown, I said most. Pedigree and Abbot are...David C Brown, I said most. Pedigree and Abbot aren't at all bland although they've certainly been tuned down over the years. I think my comparison with supermarket bread is spot on. It's made from cheap ingredients in a process that generates an enormous margin. The reason national beers tend to be more expensive is down to marketing, not because they cost more to produce. Far from it. electricpicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09144970068645280352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-9875575889273987422018-03-20T07:58:27.330+00:002018-03-20T07:58:27.330+00:00Err, I don't think the swearing really helps y...Err, I don't think the swearing really helps your argument there. In fact, given that it was posted at 00:18, your comment comes across as a touch "post-pub" ;-)Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-1972530168349105532018-03-20T00:18:16.761+00:002018-03-20T00:18:16.761+00:00Doom Bar used to have depth and character. Now it ...Doom Bar used to have depth and character. Now it is bland and boring. Maybe thats the point? It's all about the brand. Make something accessible and inoffensive and market the shit out if it and you are on to a winner? Fuck flavour. Fuck character. Profit. Profit. Profit. That's all that counts right?! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-30114469381898604142018-03-20T00:03:26.620+00:002018-03-20T00:03:26.620+00:00Treat yourself to a pint of Marble or Arbor or Dar...Treat yourself to a pint of Marble or Arbor or Dark Star or Oakham or Thornbridge and then tell me Doom Bar isn't bland and tasteless... Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-70493658371401907162018-03-19T22:44:00.324+00:002018-03-19T22:44:00.324+00:00I've just had a pint of (flat) Doom Bar poured...I've just had a pint of (flat) Doom Bar poured straight from the barrel at the Drapers Arms in Peterborough, a longstanding Spoons GBG entry. While not quite nectar (not enough takers while their fest is on) it was much drier than usual and rather pleasant. A miracle !Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-59504437006375337952018-03-19T22:24:38.066+00:002018-03-19T22:24:38.066+00:00As my children used to say "that was then, th...As my children used to say "that was then, this is now "!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01844676316009401973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-30792273085300012862018-03-19T21:50:07.746+00:002018-03-19T21:50:07.746+00:00Well the opposite of inoffensive is offensive whic...Well the opposite of inoffensive is offensive which according to my OED means "disgusting, ill-smelling, nauseous, repulsive": not qualities I look for in a beer (or a loaf of bread come to that)dcbwhaleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02585310584555592882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-8808777497770330832018-03-19T20:30:43.961+00:002018-03-19T20:30:43.961+00:00Apart from (arguably) Doom Bar I'm struggling ...Apart from (arguably) Doom Bar I'm struggling to think which beers fall into this category of being bland and inoffensive.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-3845038502001955422018-03-19T20:07:47.915+00:002018-03-19T20:07:47.915+00:00I cannot accept your description of a beer like Ab...I cannot accept your description of a beer like Abbot or Pedigree as bland, unless I misunderstand the meaning of that word. I enjoy OBB and the other beers you mention but would not consider them so superior to Abbot or Pedigree or Landlord.<br /><br />The comparison with supermarket white bread is specious. The reason why "steam baked" sliced bread outsells handcrafted wholemeal granary bread (and the reason Wall's sausages outsell independent butcher's venison and sage sausages) is not because the purchaser prefers a bland and inoffensive product; it is because they are very much cheaper<br /><br />The same is not true of beer. Your so called bland beers are often more expensive than a hand crafted explosion of hops and are certainly always dearer than Sam's OBBdcbwhaleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02585310584555592882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-59628921485545168742018-03-19T16:34:18.441+00:002018-03-19T16:34:18.441+00:00It's neither ludicrous, snobbery or a sensible...It's neither ludicrous, snobbery or a sensible balance of malt and hops. The blandness in most nationally distributed cask beers comes from a deliberate policy of ensuring the flavour of these beers is as inoffensive as supermarket white bread. Full-flavoured but well balanced and anything but 'challenging' beers are widely available - Sam Smith's OBB? Or if that's too tasty, A nice Bateman's XB, or maybe a Hook Norton Bitter, Harveys, Taylors, the list goes on... and there are micros out there that actually make tasty balanced beer as well.electricpicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09144970068645280352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5623537812609722663.post-55902136440112177562018-03-19T09:07:17.186+00:002018-03-19T09:07:17.186+00:00Doom Bar has never been one of my favourite beers ...Doom Bar has never been one of my favourite beers but, well kept, I find it no worse than when drinking it on Cornish holidays in the ‘noughties, Sharps never being anything like as good as Skinners or St Austell.<br />I certainly don’t consider “shit beer” or “bland tasteless dishwasher” to be appropriate descriptions of Doom Bar.The other Mudgie !noreply@blogger.com