Monday, 1 September 2025

Only bad pubs close

The Waggon & Horses, a large Greene King-owned dining pub located in Handforth, just south of the Stockport boundary, has recently closed its doors for the last time. It is reported that the site will be redeveloped as an Aldi supermarket. Originally owned by Greenalls, it was a large, rather plain-looking 1930s roadhouse-type pub that has for as long as I can remember operated with a food-led format. Indeed, despite having lived in the Stockport area for forty years, I have never been in it, and now I never will.

Some may say that this was no great loss, but every pub that closes is another chip off the edifice of the pub trade. Inevitably it drew a response from certain quarters of “well, only bad pubs close”. Possibly it might have lasted longer if it had been run in a different way, but would that have simply drawn trade from other pubs as opposed to increasing it in total? And this comment, which you often hear, is one of the most unhelpful and misleading things that can be said about the decline of pubs.

Since their heyday in the late 70s, not far short of half the pubs in Britain have closed. Beer sales in pubs have fallen by more than two-thirds. I have discussed at length on this blog the various reasons for this – a toxic combination of legislation, changes in social attitudes to alcohol, demographic shifts and changes in patterns of economic activity. It has been driven by a general decline in the demand for what pubs have to offer, and to construct a narrative that, if pubs had been run better or diffeently, most of this could have been avoided, completely bursts the bounds of credibility. Indeed, on average, pubs now are considerably better run than they were in 1975, when there was a substantial bottom end of really dreadful establishments.

At a micro level, it does have some relevance. Take a village with two pubs, but where the overall level of demand has fallen such that there is only now the demand for one. Almost by definition, the less appealing and less well run of the two, let us call it Pub B, will be the one that closes. But that doesn’t mean that the reason the village now only has one pub is that Pub B was a bad pub, just that it was not quite as good as Pub A. Over the years, many well-run pubs have closed for reasons totally beyond their control, such as urban redevelopment, closure of local businesses, demographic changes in their area, or new road construction leaving them on an isolated backwater.

You have to wonder why people are so keen to espouse this argument. Some, obviously, are just a bit dim and unable to see the wood for the trees. But others seem to latch on to it because they are unwilling to confront the wider socio-economic reasons for the decline of the pub trade, so it acts as a comfort blanket. You see some “beer communicators” pointing to niche businesses doing well in favourable locations and saying “see, they can do it, so why can’t others?” But somehow I don’t think becoming a trendy craft bar would have saved the Waggon & Horses.

As an aside, there is a similar conflation of the specific and the general in the oft-heard mantra that “bad roads don’t cause crashes, bad drivers do.” In a sense, this is true, as most crashes (apart from those caused by mechanical failure) result from driver error of some kind. But it is profoundly unhelpful and counter-productive in terms of improving road safety.

Since the early 1960s, the number of fatalities on Britain’s roads has fallen by more than 75%, even though the number of cars on the road has vastly increased. But very little of this is due to improvements in driving standards, which often, from observation, seem to be pretty poor. Rather it is the result of a combination of improved medical care, better primary and secondary safety of vehicles, MoT testing, stricter enforcement of dangerous behaviours and, significantly, improvements in the design and layout of roads.

A perfect example of this is motorway crash barriers. It may shock younger readers to learn that, in the early days of motorways in the 1960s, there were no central reservation crash barriers. And, unsurprisingly, there were a number of serious accidents caused by vehicles, usually heavy lorries, crossing over into the opposite carriageway.

So what was the best way of dealing with this problem? Public education campaigns? Imposing severe penalties on drivers responsible for crossover accidents? No, it was installing crash barriers, so the accidents could not happen in the first place. There was no improvement in driving standards, but safety was greatly enhanced. Bad roads may not per se cause crashes, but better roads certainly help prevent them.

31 comments:

  1. I lived a few hundred yards away from the Waggon & Horses in the late 60s and early 70s, but have no recollection of visiting. As I started drinking in the 70s, the Griffin along the A34 towards Cheadle was always regarded as the "local". Never was a fan of Greenalls and the Holt's in the Griffin always seemed a better bet. Beer preferences aside, it does seem remarkable that a food-led pub like this would close, but I guess that GK received an offer from Aldi that they couldn't refuse.

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    1. Food-led pubs are suffering too. For example, Robinson's Windmill next to M6 Junction 19 at Tabley, which they invested a lot of money in about 15-20 years ago, is now closed and boarded and has had its signage removed. By definition, food-led pubs need more staff, and so will be suffering more from the government's NI hikes. Plus customers will be feeling the pinch from high bills and taxes.

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  2. But including a couple of those "really dreadful establishments" made for a properly memorable pub crawl back in 1975 !
    I've noticed that both Greene King and Marstons have recently had the sense to go back to 1975 with splitting some of their modern pubs into two rooms, GK separating off part of a Stafford carvery pub as a Sports Bar ( which sadly didn't work ) and Marstons now having "Two Door" pubs.
    Er, don't you remember motorists driving more cautiously on motorways before central reservation crash barriers were installed, and before seat belts were introduced ?

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  3. Thanks for stressing that point about competition. If a pub closes after a decline in pub-going, there's all the difference in the world between "it closed because it wasn't good enough to attract the remaining custom" and "it closed because there wasn't enough remaining custom for two pubs and the pub down the road had a slight edge". It's a tough old world, and good pubs - good businesses generally - can go to the wall through no fault of their own.

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  4. I can see both sides of the argument. It's undeniable that social, demographic and economic trends has made the a pub a less common pursuit than it was. No amount of well run pubs can change that. However I think having followed your blog for a number of years there's a slight tendency to believe the pub going money pie is fixed, and a good pub is purely abstractive from bad pubs. I disagree, I think good pubs, interesting pubs, welcoming pubs can generate demand that wasn't there in the first place. Lots of people have extremely limited horizons, if there isn't a good local pub they don't go anywhere, as opposed to travelling further for one they like.

    However for clarity I absolutely agree with you that the Government, especially this latest one, has been extremely hostile to pubs and we need a more attractive economic landscape to allow pubs to stop contracting and regain a position as a welcomed part of the community.

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    1. I don't believe that if all pubs were as well run as the best it would move the dial by more than about 10% max.

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    2. Professor Pie-Tin3 September 2025 at 10:39

      I've known a great many pubs close because they're badly-run shitholes wtih unfriendly dickheads in charge.I'm struggling to recall a good 'un with a proactive management that has closed down.
      Forget about the NI hike and energy costs etc just clean your bogs, make sure there's toilet paper and soap provided and have hot water running out of the taps.
      Open at regular hours, clean your lines and glasses and get rid of the old ones.
      Train your staff to welcome customers, get rid of the twats and know exactly who your audience is.
      And if you manage a pub then serve behind the bar. I've lost count off the number of places where those in charge are paying someone to stand behind the bar scratching their arse while they swan around " being in charge. " Those 12 quid hours soon add up.
      Personally and at the risk of a Mudgie Meltdown I'm all in favour of weeding out the bad ones. There just isn't the business for a pub on every street corner any more and if it means only the strong survive then so be it.
      In my experience - and I've owned and ran a successful pub - bad pubs are invariably the result of poor management from people who shouldn't be anywhere near a hospitality business.
      I remember a pub close to mine in Ireland being taken over by a prison warden preparing for retirement. And he proceeded to treat customers just like a screw. Within a month four ten pints a day men had decamped to my gaff. And these were solid manual labour lads who came in wearing muddy boots but never never gave me an ounce of bother. They were worth an extra 3 kegs a week 52/7 to my turnover. Just to sweep up the mud after they'd gone. Mr MacKay gave the game up within 18 months.

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    3. I await with interest your analysis of why the demise of transatlantic ocean liner services was due to them being poorly run.

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    4. Professor Pie-Tin4 September 2025 at 08:11

      I've never run an ocean liner so my opinion of their demise is worthless.
      Much like a pub and beer blogger opining about the loss of a pub they've never been into despite living nearby for 40 years.
      You've answered your own question pal.

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    5. If you can't be polite, then maybe best not to comment at all.

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    6. Ginger scum resigned - I'll have a can of lout to celebrate. Sabbath Shalom!

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  5. 20th Century Relic5 September 2025 at 23:41

    Yes, there are numerous reasons why pubs are closing, but poor management is definitely one of them. Back in the olden days the popularity of a pub would wax and wane as landlords/managers with varying degrees of competence (oh, and personality!) came and went. Today, with the various factors contributing to the decline in trade, surely all that it's going to take is somebody who's not really up to the job to make a pub go under?

    I stress that I'm not saying this is the sole reason or even the primary reason for pub closures, and I certainly can't speak for the premises mentioned here, but I do feel that to deny it has any effect is just as incorrect as saying "only bad pubs close".

    And there's one major reason for vastly improved road safety which you haven't mentioned, and that is making everything go slower. It's a very blunt tool but there's no denying that it works.

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  6. Back in the olden days the popularity of a pub would wax and wane as landlords/managers with varying degrees of competence (oh, and personality!) came and went. Today, with the various factors contributing to the decline in trade, surely all that it's going to take is somebody who's not really up to the job to make a pub go under?

    You're still confusing the micro and macro. If the popularity of a specific pub waned due to poor management, the customers would have generally gone elsewhere. It's irrelevant to wider trends.

    And there's one major reason for vastly improved road safety which you haven't mentioned, and that is making everything go slower. It's a very blunt tool but there's no denying that it works.

    I would strenuously deny that. In recent years, when there has been an obsessive emphasis on reducing speeds, the reduction in fatalities has tailed off. And a significant factor in reducing deaths was moving long-distance traffic on to motorways, where traffic speeds are significantly higher than the roads they replaced.

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  7. Professor Pie-Tin6 September 2025 at 17:15

    " If the popularity of a specific pub waned due to poor management, the customers would have generally gone elsewhere.It's irrelevant to wider trends. "
    Really ? It merely confirms to me that when generational drinking habits change the pubs that are well-run survive and those that aren't don't.
    Footfall is not rocket science.

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    1. Aha, so you accept the wider socio-economic factors DO affect the fortunes of pubs in general?

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    2. Professor Pie-Tin8 September 2025 at 11:21

      I never said they didn't. But the point you miss is that badly-run pubs are less equipped to cope with wider socio-economic factors because, well, they're badly run by people who are either incompetent or don't give a toss.
      Otherwise, by your metric, all pubs would be doing badly and closing down which quite clearly they're not. The good pubs that provide good service and products will outlast even the most useless of socialist governments.

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    3. It is obvious that the tinman is wrong. If there is no demand then the best supplier will struggle to survive.
      The finest and best run carriage makers did not survive the invention of the automobile. Lamplighters and knockers-up, however excellent they were, lost their jobs with the advent automatic switches and alarm clocks.
      If there are six excellent well run pubs in an area with trade for five one of them will close, however peronable the landlord

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    4. @PPT - , as dcbwhaley says it may not be that a pub is "bad" in any sense, just maybe not quite as good as the one it is directly competing with.

      Plus location is an important factor. In general, people will want to use pubs that are convenient for where they live, work or visit for other purposes. With few exceptions., they won't go out of their way specifically to visit a pub. In the village scenario I gave, pub A may win out over pub B not because it is better run, but because it is in the village centre on the main road rather than tucked away in a back street.

      A pub located in a tourist hotspot may thrive despite not being well run - I've been in quite a few over the years. In contrast, a pub in a remote rural location, or an unpromising inner-urban area, may struggle for custom regardless of what its offer is.

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  8. Professor Pie-Tin9 September 2025 at 09:02

    Do you have any examples of any of these slightly less well run pubs in good locations that have been forced to close ?
    Because I can give you chapter and verse on shitoles that are deservedly boarded up.
    On a happier note my new local in Bath is a cracker.
    Bass in good nick, local cider, an upstairs restaurant and £3 ham and cheese baps on the bar.
    Mrs PPT and I are settling in nicely.

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  9. Two good pubs (and one bad one) in my small town closed in the last few years. In each case the reason was that the owners could make more money by converting them to residential use and building houses on the car park.
    I suppose that you could say that a pub is badly run if it can't make more money from ale and food than from converting to residential.

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    1. I would have described the Navigation at Buxworth just down the road from you as a good pub, but obviously its owners couldn't make a go of it.

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    2. The owner was not a very pleasant man.. But surprised he couldn't make itp\y: a very popular destination pub.
      Bur I was referring to the Dog and Partridge at Bridgemont,, The Shady Oak at Fernilee, and the White Horse at Horwich End

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  10. Professor Pie-Tin9 September 2025 at 17:39

    I don't know the Navigation pub personally but FWIW a number of the most recent reviews on Tripadvisor before it closed all carry a central theme of a " rude " and " miserable " landlord.
    I always take Tripadvisor with a large pinch of salt but when a theme develops there's usually no smoke without fire.
    As I often say I've lost count of the number of inhospitable people I've met working in hospitality.
    Not always Basil Fawlty-esque but people who seem reluctant to acknowledge your existence and quite clearly would prefer to be upstairs watching Homes Under The Hammer.

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  11. 20th Century Relic9 September 2025 at 23:25

    A pub which is 'badly run' and a pub which is 'not as well run as the others' are different degrees of the same thing, particularly when referring to one which has closed for good. And we can't compare this situation to ocean liner operators or lamp lighters - there's still a demand for pubs, just a smaller demand than in years gone by. My original point was that how well a pub is run will have a bearing on which ones ultimately survive or die, especially in a pre-WW1 residential area like where I live, where there are/used to be many pubs within walking distance. I'm surprised that some can't see this, but it's what being a 'curmudgeon' is all about I guess. ;o)

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    1. Obviously the relative attractiveness of different pubs will determine which succeed and which fail, but the overall level of demand for pubs is mostly driven by wider socio-economic-legislative factors.

      Anyway, my friend, as the comment policy says "If you want to comment using an unregistered ID, you will need to tell me something about yourself", and I think we've now reached that point.

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    2. Just some evidence of your existence elsewhere on the Internet. Do you have a blog or website? An X or Facebook account? Do you regularly comment on any other blogs or forums? If your sole contribution to the Internet is commenting on this blog it comes across as a little strange.

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    3. 20th Century Relic11 September 2025 at 17:20

      Thank you. Yes I do exist elsewhere on the Internet but I'm very selective, being of the opinion that 99% of the Internet is moronic drivel. I don't go near any of the social media platforms, holding the view that they encourage a regression to childhood and have had a detrimental effect on humanity. I do have a WordPress blog which in terms of subject matter has absolutely no connection with this one and is unlikely to be of any interest. I've just done a search on DuckDuckGo and it appears way down on Page 11. That's OK with me because, like yourself with this blog I suspect, I regard it first and foremost as a personal record. My membership of forums is under different usernames, mostly due to legacy reasons but it's my right to do this and it's also my right not to divulge any connection between them.

      I don't have a Google account because I absoutely despise them. Why? Because I once had a Blogger account just like you. I then had a technical issue with it which could easily have been fixed by someone with high level access. But there's no customer helpdesk facility because, as it dawned on me, account holders are NOT customers of Google. Remember, if it's free then YOU are the product. And that's their primary business model, 'new slavery' I call it.

      I own the 20thcenturyrelic.com domain and have plans to create my own Internet presence, but it's likely to be some time in the future because presently I'm in the fortunate position of having other things to do.

      I have actually been reading this blog for many years on my work computer during break periods. I took early retirement last year and thought that I would start contributing to what impressed me as a very articulate and knowledgeable community. However, in light of your above comment, I have to say that I find your attitude quite obnoxious so will now bow out. May I extend my best wishes to your small band of commenters.

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  12. When considering the percentage of pubs which have closed over the last 50 years it is necessary to take into account
    1 The number of new licensed venues which have opened many of which have a larger square footage than traditional pubs
    2 The new venues often cater for a market which has evolved over the last 50 years such as cocktail bars and that the fact that drinkers' tastes and needs have changed
    3 Until approximately 20 years ago it was possible to 'trade in' existing licences in return for the grant of a new licence and many licensed premises which were probably economically unviable were kept open because their licences had a value
    The situation may therefore be different from a 50% decline in the number of pubs over 50 years
    c

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    1. Many of these new licensed premises are restaurants. And even if they are bars of various kinds, they tend to cluster in town and city centres and not in the areas where pubs have closed en masse, so they are not direct replacements.

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    2. Social and demographic changes mean that the new licensed premises are not direct replacements for the pubs, life has changed considerably over the last 50 years, perhaps more so than it changed in the last 100 years

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  13. So next year's GBBF is cancelled because CAMRA has run out of money to fund it.
    They must have lost a fortune with their decision to hold this year's event in an blimp hanger just off the M6.

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